Elliptic tip form profil...

Bob Jewett said:
In my experience very few tips are constant curvature (spherical surface). The edges always have more curve and the center is more flat. I don't worry about it and I don't shape my tip other than during install and by whatever chalking and play does to it.
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When we hit the center cueball we don't need as much curvature than when we hit off center for high english, and a flatter tip at center is better to play long shot without any english. I'm just looking to definit some good forms like progressive curvature from center to edge tip and by the way these forms are elliptic in mathematic and cnc programming. I want to make forming tool tip to get these forms easily at installation and maintenance of tips. May be that would be nice!!
 
Back when the world was square with gently rounded corners we played a lot with flat centered tips with radiused edges. These were probably medium tips at most compared to the hard tips of today but I think there is still a fair amount of tip distortion, some ferrule distortion too, at impact. As a result simple modeling of the tip radius and cue ball radius doesn't give a true representation of what is happening.

Anyway, those old tips were much less inclined to miscue than today's. I remember full radius tips to be a little trickier to play with when I tried them back then.

An old friend had some finite element analysis software years ago. Best I remember that might be the bee's knees to try to dope an optimum tip shape, not that proof would have much affect on anyone's opinion, including mine!(grin)

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Back when the world was square with gently rounded corners we played a lot with flat centered tips with radiused edges. These were probably medium tips at most compared to the hard tips of today but I think there is still a fair amount of tip distortion, some ferrule distortion too, at impact. As a result simple modeling of the tip radius and cue ball radius doesn't give a true representation of what is happening.

Anyway, those old tips were much less inclined to miscue than today's. I remember full radius tips to be a little trickier to play with when I tried them back then.

An old friend had some finite element analysis software years ago. Best I remember that might be the bee's knees to try to dope an optimum tip shape, not that proof would have much affect on anyone's opinion, including mine!(grin)

Hu
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Thank you for the input, you said exactly what I think with simple words, English is not my laguage I'm French Canadian and sometimes it's not easy for me to explain my thoughts.
When you said that you are absolutely right: I think there is still a fair amount of tip distortion, some ferrule distortion too, at impact. As a result simple modeling of the tip radius and cue ball radius doesn't give a true representation of what is happening.
Much more compression and distortion happen on the edge of the tip than the center and it is why a simple dime radius example is more prone to miscue than a flatter an rounded corner tip.
I'm just drawing some overlay drawings of some elliptic form overlay with dime, nickel and quarter radius, it's very helpful and interesting to determine the best elliptic form to try. 😁
 
EL Picos said:
Thank you for the input, you said exactly what I think with simple words, English is not my laguage I'm French Canadian and sometimes it's not easy for me to explain my thoughts.
When you said that you are absolutely right: I think there is still a fair amount of tip distortion, some ferrule distortion too, at impact. As a result simple modeling of the tip radius and cue ball radius doesn't give a true representation of what is happening.
Much more compression and distortion happen on the edge of the tip than the center and it is why a simple dime radius example is more prone to miscue than a flatter an rounded corner tip.
I'm just drawing some overlay drawings of some elliptic form overlay with dime, nickel and quarter radius, it's very helpful and interesting to determine the best elliptic form to try. 😁
Click to expand...

Former designer/draftsman here but going back to the dinosaur days or almost. I had AutoCAD 13 for about a month before I retired in '94. I had used from 2.x. I forget which version of Intergraph PC but it was the latest and greatest thanks to nuke power plant budget. I had played around in R&D for a few years before the nuke, lots of fun!

Sounds like we are in exactly the same place with tip theory. Good luck with your efforts!

Hu
 
The elliptic profile of the cue tip for general shots is the standard cue tip.

For specialized or trick shots there are classes of elliptic profiles that are more optimal than others.

In a previous post an amazing billiard scholar, scientist and analyst mentioned using inverted cue tip shapes. Convex is the standard tip profile. Concave is a class of tips unknown to billiards.

An inverted cue tip shape would attempt to match the exact form of cue ball during contact.

An inverted cue tip extends the precision of a shot from tight pockets to now a tight contact point during stroke.
 
justnum said:
The elliptic profile of the cue tip for general shots is the standard cue tip.

For specialized or trick shots there are classes of elliptic profiles that are more optimal than others.

In a previous post an amazing billiard scholar, scientist and analyst mentioned using inverted cue tip shapes. Convex is the standard tip profile. Concave is a class of tips unknown to billiards.

An inverted cue tip shape would attempt to match the exact form of cue ball during contact.

An inverted cue tip extends the precision of a shot from tight pockets to now a tight contact point during stroke.
Click to expand...
I thought I was a little crazy, but now I see that I'm saved! 🥳😂
 
Bob Jewett said:
In my experience very few tips are constant curvature (spherical surface). The edges always have more curve and the center is more flat. I don't worry about it and I don't shape my tip other than during install and by whatever chalking and play does to it.
Click to expand...
I grind mine to form a bit of a triangle. Then with a little play the middle will compact. From there I shape. Takes some work but you will get a good tip that keeps it's shape without starting out too hard (I play with Moorie S)
 
justnum said:
The elliptic profile of the cue tip for general shots is the standard cue tip.

For specialized or trick shots there are classes of elliptic profiles that are more optimal than others.

In a previous post an amazing billiard scholar, scientist and analyst mentioned using inverted cue tip shapes. Convex is the standard tip profile. Concave is a class of tips unknown to billiards.

An inverted cue tip shape would attempt to match the exact form of cue ball during contact.

An inverted cue tip extends the precision of a shot from tight pockets to now a tight contact point during stroke.
Click to expand...
Have you ever been in the same room as a cue tip?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Any part of the tip that’s more rounded than a typical nickel or dime shape (max about 30 degree slope from flat) can only touch the ball on a miscue. A more rounded edge is less usable tip.

pj
chgo
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Posts like this are why you are one of my favorite posters here. I would not have thought of that, Thanks Patrick
 
hang-the-9 said:
How about a variable hardness tip, harder in the middle, more pliable at the edges or vice versa. So a cored tip similar to some of the break tips where they have a middle leather surrounded by a harder material.

Anyone have the tools to do this? By a Soft and a Hard tip, punch out the middle and fill it in with the other tip. I would bet that the playability and feel of it would be pretty good. You'd need to use something like a soft animal-based glue that does not fully harden, or just pressure to keep the leather together. If some hard super glue was used, I think that would make the hit somewhat odd when the glue was exposed.
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Isn't this what happens with pressed tips(elkmaster, milkduds, lepro...)? I always thought that since those single layer tips were already preformed(pre-domed?) that when they were pressed the middle would have to compress more then the outsides, making the center harder.
 
Dime form is too much everywhere, at center and on edge of the tip, for a hard extreme draw shot when the edge of tip compress and deform that becom more than dime radius and the risk of miscue is very high.
 
EL Picos said:
Dime form is too much everywhere, at center and on edge of the tip
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I doubt that differences in common tip shapes make much difference at center ball.

EL Picos said:
...for a hard extreme draw shot when the edge of tip compress and deform that becom more than dime radius and the risk of miscue is very high.
Click to expand...
A flatter tip (nickel) hits closer to the tip's edge than a rounder one (dime).

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
I doubt that differences in common tip shapes make much difference at center ball.


A flatter tip (nickel) hits closer to the tip's edge than a rounder one (dime).

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
The technical things and what happen really in the facts are two different thing.
For long shot of precision, if you hit exactly and perfectly at the center cueball you are ok with a dime or more rounder no problem, but the facts in the game are not like that, a flatter tip will hit straighter if you miss the perfect cueball center, everybody know that.
And for the exttreme english and draw shot, when the tip compress and deform at contact it become much more than the original radius, the technical on a drawing and what happen really are two differents things.
 
EL Picos said:
...a flatter tip will hit straighter if you miss the perfect cueball center, everybody know that.
Click to expand...
I've heard it before, and it makes intuitive sense - I don't think it's really significant in pool reality.

EL Picos said:
And for the exttreme english and draw shot, when the tip compress and deform at contact it become much more than the original radius
Click to expand...
Whether or not that matters, it isn't worse with a rounder tip - just the opposite.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I've heard it before, and it makes intuitive sense - I don't think it's really significant in pool reality.


Whether or not that matters, it isn't worse with a rounder tip - just the opposite.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
You think what you want and it doesn't change the world.
 
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