English on this bank shot.

tjlmbklr

tjlmbklr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A situation came up last night in 8ball(my partners shot) He missed his leave and was forced to go for this bank. What is the english to avoid the double kiss?

START(
%AG2I6%BX4Q9%C_4M7%Db2L4%E`8P4%F]0M8%G\5J3%H\3L3%I^4U4%J[5H4
%K`9S1%Ld2R0%M_0R0%N^8Q5%OK0O4%PL4U4%WG5J7%XL0T9%[F2D2%\F9I1
%]D0[0%^F0C2
)END

How do I post just the image of the wei table insted of the copy/paste code?
 
tjlmbklr said:
A situation came up last night in 8ball(my partners shot) He missed his leave and was forced to go for this bank. What is the english to avoid the double kiss?

START(
%AG2I6%BX4Q9%C_4M7%Db2L4%E`8P4%F]0M8%G\5J3%H\3L3%I^4U4%J[5H4
%K`9S1%Ld2R0%M_0R0%N^8Q5%OK0O4%PL4U4%WG5J7%XL0T9%[F2D2%\F9I1
%]D0[0%^F0C2
)END

How do I post just the image of the wei table insted of the copy/paste code?
Click to expand...

It is on your tool bar for the response.
OR
You can put [ WEI ] before and after the statement for your setup (WEI - must be all CAPS and no spaces between the brackets).

CueTable Help

 
Bottom-Left. Don't cut it. Hit it full in the face but not hard. The draw will give the object ball some more legs and help keep the cue-ball from drifting in the way. The harder you hit it, the less action you're going to get.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Bottom-Left. Don't cut it. Hit it full in the face but not hard. The draw will give the object ball some more legs and help keep the cue-ball from drifting in the way. The harder you hit it, the less action you're going to get.
Click to expand...

Thanks, but I think my illustration wasn't accurate enough. There wasn't enough of the ball to hit full, but I know there was enough to get the bank. we were just unsure of what to do to avoid the the dreaded kiss/kiss. And of course he went bottom left(I think) and double kissed it. I said I always go top, but it depends on the object balls distance from the rail. here is a updated veresion, Thanks alpine9430

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tjlmbklr said:
Thanks, but I think my illustration isn't accurate enough. There wasn't enough of the ball to hit full, but I know there was enough to get the bank. we were just unsure of what to do to avoid the the dreaded kiss/kiss. And of course he went bottom left(I think) and double kissed it. I said I always go top, but it depends on the object balls distance from the rail.
Click to expand...


If that's the case, avoiding the kiss is almost impossible. You have a slow-moving cue-ball going right into the lane. If you use draw, you're slowing-down the cue-ball more (bad), if you use follow, you're heading right toward the rebound point (also bad). I say, even if you know this shot very very well, you're still going to have a decent double-kiss rate. However, if you can do what I describe, it's quite useful and comes up quite a bit.
 
There is such finesse used on shots like this, it is tough to call when you are looking at a cartoon drawing that is "close".

A little up or down table or a little right or left makes a WORLD of difference.

Jude is correct. It is very hard to avoid a double kiss from my best guess give the available illustration.

Advise on what english? I wouldn't dare unless I was staring at the actual table.
 
I wish I could remember a something I was taught a long time ago. It had to do with a rule of thumb on cross rail banks, it was along the effect that if you can shoot the cue directly into the pocket with out hitting the ball you want to bank, then you wont double kiss, and if the ball is obstructing the pocket, then you will? or was it the other way?
 
Would top right with lag speed work on this one?

I was shown a similar shot this weekend and the cue ball rebounded directly behind the banked ball.
But I do believe the demonstration was with the object ball a bit closer to the side rail and the cue ball never interfered with the object balls banking path.

Not a 1-pocket player - just saw this one!
Myron
 
PROG8R said:
I wish I could remember a something I was taught a long time ago. It had to do with a rule of thumb on cross rail banks, it was along the effect that if you can shoot the cue directly into the pocket with out hitting the ball you want to bank, then you wont double kiss, and if the ball is obstructing the pocket, then you will? or was it the other way?
Click to expand...

This is a rule Gray wrote about for an Inside Pool article.
I believe this rule is meant for shooting with no english.
 
how acurate is this?

if its VERY high %, i thank you alot for posting it. i didnt knew it, and its something very valuable.
 
tjlmbklr said:
A situation came up last night in 8ball(my partners shot) He missed his leave and was forced to go for this bank. What is the english to avoid the double kiss?

[/B]
Click to expand...
Bank shots are always an iffy proposition. Why not shoot the 7 into the top right corner pocket?
 
tjlmbklr said:
A situation came up last night in 8ball(my partners shot) He missed his leave and was forced to go for this bank. What is the english to avoid the double kiss?
...
Click to expand...
As others have pointed out, a tiny difference in position makes a huge difference in what you need to do to avoid a kiss-out. Here is an article that shows a framework for studying kiss-outs on one-rail banks: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1999-07.pdf One of the things that you learn pretty quickly in such a study is that most of the rules of thumb for kisses are broken.

There are at least three techniques that could work on the shot illustrated depending on how the balls are sitting: stiff the ball with left draw, duck under/forward with right follow/center, dead drop on the rail with soft left follow. If you want to do something spectacular, jack up a little and jump the cue ball off the object ball onto the nose of the cushion (technique 4).
 
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Bob Jewett said:
As others have pointed out, a tiny difference in position makes a huge difference in what you need to do to avoid a kiss-out. Here is an article that shows a framework for studying kiss-outs on one-rail banks: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1999-07.pdf One of the things that you learn pretty quickly in such a study is that most of the rules of thumb for kisses are broken.

There are at least three techniques that could work on the shot illustrated depending on how the balls are sitting: stiff the ball with left draw, duck under/forward with right follow/center, dead drop on the rail with soft left follow. If you want to do something spectacular, jack up a little and jump the cue ball off the object ball onto the nose of the cushion (technique 4).
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My first reaction was the dead drop soft left. But was corrected by many
who spoke of how difficult it is to look at a drawing and give advice. When I played pool this was one of my favorites as far as tough banks went and still use it in 3C play.
 
BazookaJoe said:
This is a rule Gray wrote about for an Inside Pool article.
I believe this rule is meant for shooting with no english.
Click to expand...

This rule is meant for shooting high inside english like you would to avoid the kiss (for example if you could *barely* shoot into the opposite corner, passing the left side of the OB, top right ought to avoid the kiss). If you can't shoot past the OB into the opposite corner from the one you're banking to, then go low-outside english (and cut the ball less, of course).

Sometimes another alternative is to jump the CB off the OB, allowing the OB to pass underneath. Not as hard as it sounds, but often risky and prone to error.
 
BazookaJoe said:
This is a rule Gray wrote about for an Inside Pool article.
I believe this rule is meant for shooting with no english.
Click to expand...

Of course I meant to type Grady.
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
Bank shots are always an iffy proposition. Why not shoot the 7 into the top right corner pocket?
Click to expand...

The 1 ball was his last ball. For demo purposes I left all the other balls on the WEI table
 
Bob Jewett said:
There are at least three techniques that could work on the shot illustrated depending on how the balls are sitting: stiff the ball with left draw, duck under/forward with right follow/center, dead drop on the rail with soft left follow. If you want to do something spectacular, jack up a little and jump the cue ball off the object ball onto the nose of the cushion (technique 4).
Click to expand...

Thats a pretty thorough answer, I missed guessing techique 4, thats pretty creative!

I shot a very similar shot to this last night in a tournament match. I chose to stiff the ball (The Beard's side step bank shot). I find the soft left follow shot to be alot more missable than whacking the ball with speed. I made the shot and ran out too :-)
 
I think

that Jude's initial post was pretty accurate except I would cut it a little thinner with low left, let the english on the OB throw the ball towards the opposite side corner, and the cue ball would have already passed the line of path for the OB coming off the rail.

I have a good friend that is particularly good at these type of shots, and have seen him shoot some cross corner banks that look amazing considering
how close some of the object balls are to the corner pocket. Half of the shots look like a double kiss for sure, but he pulls them off. A few may have even heard of him, many years ago, he went to DCC, and ran everyone off the Challenge table, and beat Bennie Conway .... Although he doesn't have a nickname, I call him 'Sharpshooter' Mark Rogers.
 
I've read that when the line between the contact points is in the pocket, it's an indicator that the bank will be a double kiss. I think with some right high english, less cut, and a fairly soft hit, you might be able to induce enough spin on object ball to get the angle off the cushion. Of course this all depends on quality of balls, cloth, coushions. SYMV :)


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