English speed question

[Mike30]

I have a 2 part question, and this might be elementary to some....

1st with English - I am looking for opinions on how to apply English. There are 3 different ways that I have read or heard about. One being front hand pivot, another being rear hand pivot, and finally another being a complete shift. I have always used complete shift but after different videos, I am not sure if this is the best application.

2nd part is a question concerning speed - I hear certain videos talking about all their speeds being on a number lever ( a 4 speed would be a lag, an 8 speed would be 2 times up and down table), I am curious if most people use a number for all shots or more just from feel.

Thanks! Any help or opinions would be appreciated. Stay safe!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I am looking for opinions on how to apply English. There are 3 different ways that I have read or heard about. One being front hand pivot, another being rear hand pivot, and finally another being a complete shift. I have always used complete shift but after different videos, I am not sure

Front hand pivot: move only your bridge hand (grip hand stationary) to apply side spin. Works best with low-squirt cues.

Back hand pivot: move only your grip hand (bridge hand stationary) to apply side spin. Works best with higher-squirt cues.

Complete shift: place your cue at whatever predetermined angle to the shot line you've learned (through practiced experience) works for the amount of sidespin you want.

None of these are completely "automatic" - some "tweaking" is necessary for different amounts of side spin, different shot lengths, different shot speeds, different cue elevations, etc.

For more in-depth info: https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/

2nd part is a question concerning speed - ...I am curious if most people use a number for all shots or more just from feel.

Almost everybody controls speed by feel, mainly because it depends so much on variables like fullness of hit, CB spin, etc.

pj
chgo

 

[Cron]

Front hand pivot: move only your bridge hand (grip hand stationary) to apply side spin. Works best with low-squirt cues.

Back hand pivot: move only your grip hand (bridge hand stationary) to apply side spin. Works best with higher-squirt cues.

Wouldn't you want to use a method that always reduces squirt? Or is that what these methods do with the respective cue.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Wouldn't you want to use a method that always reduces squirt? Or is that what these methods do with the respective cue.

If you want a certain amount of side spin on the ball with a certain amount of follow/draw and speed, no technique will reduce the amount of squirt you're going to get. You have to set the cue tip a certain distance from the cue ball's center for that much side spin and it is that distance from center that will determine how much squirt you have for a given cue stick.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Wouldn't you want to use a method that always reduces squirt? Or is that what these methods do with the respective cue.

...no technique will reduce the amount of squirt you're going to get. You have to set the cue tip a certain distance from the cue ball's center for that much side spin and it is that distance from center that will determine how much squirt you have for a given cue stick.

Yes, you don't reduce squirt; you change your aim to compensate for it. And for each shot there's only one cue angle (aim) that works for your cue, so all the methods are just different ways of getting to the same place. Which one to use is mostly a matter of personal preference (except for the caveat about backhand/fronthand vs. low/high squirt cues).

pj
chgo

 

[TATE]

I have a 2 part question, and this might be elementary to some....

1st with English - I am looking for opinions on how to apply English. There are 3 different ways that I have read or heard about. One being front hand pivot, another being rear hand pivot, and finally another being a complete shift. I have always used complete shift but after different videos, I am not sure if this is the best application.

2nd part is a question concerning speed - I hear certain videos talking about all their speeds being on a number lever ( a 4 speed would be a lag, an 8 speed would be 2 times up and down table), I am curious if most people use a number for all shots or more just from feel.

Thanks! Any help or opinions would be appreciated. Stay safe!

I'm not a teacher but I'm a pretty decent player, so let me describe how I do it. I don't think it's to your advantage to make speed or spin technique a mechanical move.

I prefer to be aligned for English before I get down to shoot, just like any other shot. I don't like to shift anything once I'm down because movement can change your sight line. Consistent tip position is necessary for accuracy.

But the front hand and rear hand are not on the same line as if I were shooting a straight in shot. The rear hand stays about the same but the bridge has been moved left or right before I get down on the shot. In other words, you are not doing a complete parallel shift. In fact, you might be slightly adjusting both the front and rear hands in opposite directions.

As far as speed control, visualization and practice are necessary to develop the coordination and experience to determine how much force is needed. Remember, it's not just how hard you hit the cue ball. You can use side spin, angle and other influences to manipulate the speed, like proximity to a rail for instance, sometimes a lot more precisely than you can with just controlling the force.

 

[straightline]

If you want a certain amount of side spin on the ball with a certain amount of follow/draw and speed, no technique will reduce the amount of squirt you're going to get. You have to set the cue tip a certain distance from the cue ball's center for that much side spin and it is that distance from center that will determine how much squirt you have for a given cue stick.

It's true many pool types shud do sum English class but maybe loosen up on this ironclad bit? People are here to socialize. The idea is to compensate in the first place right? I opened with this because I was about to wade in with the concept of "low deflection stroke" but I see you got that covered.

So, I'll bring it up anyway.
Extreme example for exemplary purpose only:

For a given off center hit, ramming it will cause more deflection than tapping it.
The latter would be a low deflection stroke and dbl vice versa...

Continuing with compensated english, there's a BHE issue when the cue ball is close or frozen to a rail. You either get swerve or no deflection or some degree of both causing the dreaded too thick hit. I haven't found the cinch solution yet.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... For a given off center hit, ramming it will cause more deflection than tapping it. ...

You are confusing the combination of squirt and swerve with just squirt. It's a common error. You need to study this more.

 

[straightline]

You are confusing the combination of squirt and swerve with just squirt. It's a common error. You need to study this more.

I see swerve as masse however subtle or pronounced and squirt as simple deflection.
The problem off the cushion (and these are the short way and usually forceful attempts at running the ball) is BHE doesn't do the trick.

As to high or low deflection stroke, I guess I need to point out that these are all relative to ball making at distances where swerve is negligible.

 

[Cron]

For a given off center hit, ramming it will cause more deflection than tapping it.
The latter would be a low deflection stroke and dbl vice versa...

But, you're introducing variables, I think constants are implied here. However, if you hit the ball 10x harder with all shafts, wouldn't each shaft just have a sharper curvature? But do know no matter what changes, the deflection ("squirt") will not change due to speed **.

I understand that if you hit the ball at point X, with Y shaft, you get Z squirt. But for that same reason, I don't see why different hand placements would change anything outside of comfort/preference (as Patrick Johnson mentioned).

Here's a Dr. Dave link on Squirt, Swerve and throw...

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/confusion/

Anyhow, I watched Dr Dave's video on deflection and he makes since of squirt+swerve with these hand techniques. And with that said, I still don't do that and it still works out fine (in fact I'm not sure I could make those shots the way he does).

Here's the video where I *think* he's touching upon this subject, but again I don't do this (I will surely try it when this COVID thing is over... so like in 10 years or so)...

https://youtu.be/AwytGsNl2vc?t=262

** Not that it's relevant to this topic, but I've read that once an object goes so fast and approaches light speed, the objects mass does change (it's not relevant... I can't prove it... I just put it out there... ).

 

[straightline]

But, you're introducing variables, I think constants are implied here. However, if you hit the ball 10x harder with all shafts, wouldn't each shaft just have a sharper curvature? But do know no matter what changes, the deflection ("squirt") will not change due to speed **.

I know different. If you tap a ball you can get it to go pretty much straight ahead. Some people fade in the direction of english or you can simply tap without going through the ball. These strokes are the low deflection of yesteryear but they still work.

As for "deflection is always equal", the amount of deflection is very much contingent on how hard the ball is struck.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...deflection ("squirt") will not change due to speed

That’s correct - but it can seem like it changes because swerve (which counteracts squirt) changes with speed, especially over longer distances. The accurate way to describe it is effective squirt or net squirt (squirt minus swerve, also known as squerve).

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

... As for "deflection is always equal", the amount of deflection is very much contingent on how hard the ball is struck.

I think that you remain confused on this subject.