Equipment hypothetical

Donkeybutt

Registered
If a 600 fargo rate player today went back in time with an ultra low deflection shaft, say to the 1960s, would he be a top level player? Would that LD shaft give him enough of an advantage to overcome top players of the past?
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If a 600 fargo rate player today went back in time with an ultra low deflection shaft, say to the 1960s, would he be a top level player? Would that LD shaft give him enough of an advantage to overcome top players of the past?

No, newer equipment does not help someone play better in their own, it just makes it easier to aim with spin and may give some power advantage. If someone is used to playing with their equipment it does not matter what they use, they just need to know how to play with it. The top players played well with standard shafts and they continue to play well with LD shafts, the ranking did not change when they changed shafts. In fact the slower cloth and older style rules would make a 600 Fargo play worse than they can now on the slick faster and easier rolling cloth.
 
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fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
If a 600 fargo rate player today went back in time with an ultra low deflection shaft, say to the 1960s, would he be a top level player? Would that LD shaft give him enough of an advantage to overcome top players of the past?

Its been said probably 1,000,000 times here "its the Indian, not the arrow". Equipment doesnt make a player better.
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
Its been said probably 1,000,000 times here "its the Indian, not the arrow". Equipment doesnt make a player better.

are you trying to kill billiard sales

are you a paid protestor

there is one cue for everyone, but it takes a while to find the cue for you.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sure, but a relatively good player could use new equipment to make some shots that others couldn't consistently

Not others could make, only those that the player could not before. I find my Revo helps me with shots over a ball to keep the cueball going straight and it gets more action on the cueball with the same force as other shafts. But it does not help me with the correct speed or angle to get position or to actually keep my mechanics good to pocket the ball or help with safety ideas or patterns, or banking or how the rails react. A 600 that got a new cue/shaft that he liked may get to a 620 level due to the improvements and some more practice with the equipment, they won't jump up 2-3 levels from changing shafts.

A 600 is about an A- player, they would need to get through A, A+, Open, then get to the lower Pro levels to compete with anyone in any era that was in the top ranks of players.
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
the only cue i need is a short range poker than I can easily recoil on those tight shots with no space to manuever.


Not others could make, only those that the player could not before. I find my Revo helps me with shots over a ball to keep the cueball going straight and it gets more action on the cueball with the same force as other shafts. But it does not help me with the correct speed or angle to get position or to actually keep my mechanics good to pocket the ball or help with safety ideas or patterns, or banking or how the rails react. A 600 that got a new cue/shaft that he liked may get to a 620 level due to the improvements and some more practice with the equipment, they won't jump up 2-3 levels from changing shafts.

A 600 is about an A- player, they would need to get through A, A+, Open, then get to the lower Pro levels to compete with anyone in any era that was in the top ranks of players.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I thought long and hard about this. I'm torn between whether low deflection shafts would impact his fargo rate as much as 5 points, or not at all.

I'd say if they were playing 9 ball, and since they weren't already a top player, it's possible that he'd become a 605 Fargo. Playing against top players it's possible that instead of losing 11-4, 11-2, 11-5, 11-8, 11-1, 11-4, that maybe one of those sets he might at some point win one more game.

Now, if he had a carbon fiber shaft he'd have the additional benefit of not having to remove dings from his shaft between losses...
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Do all of today's top pros play with low squirt cues? How are the ones with high squirt cues still top pros?

pj
chgo
 

pwd72s

recreational banger
Silver Member
If a 600 fargo rate player today went back in time with an ultra low deflection shaft, say to the 1960s, would he be a top level player? Would that LD shaft give him enough of an advantage to overcome top players of the past?

Top players are top players regardless of the time frame. Pretty hard to find clear video from the 50's or 60's...but here's a 1991 finals match between Nick Varner and Earl. Note the long ferrules on their cues, which leads me to believe they're using solid maple shafts.

(edit) Just noticed..Earl was CUTEC sponsored back then. Meaning he was using a fiberglass coated wooden shaft. In my opinion, even worse than solid maple.

Can you really see anyone with a 600 fargo, shooting whatever cue he likes from today, hanging with either of these guys?

I can't...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeMA2pHN5WY
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If a 600 fargo rate player today went back in time with an ultra low deflection shaft, say to the 1960s, would he be a top level player? Would that LD shaft give him enough of an advantage to overcome top players of the past?
Uhhh, no.....
 

Donkeybutt

Registered
Top players are top players regardless of the time frame. Pretty hard to find clear video from the 50's or 60's...but here's a 1991 finals match between Nick Varner and Earl. Note the long ferrules on their cues, which leads me to believe they're using solid maple shafts.

(edit) Just noticed..Earl was CUTEC sponsored back then. Meaning he was using a fiberglass coated wooden shaft. In my opinion, even worse than solid maple.

Can you really see anyone with a 600 fargo, shooting whatever cue he likes from today, hanging with either of these guys?

I can't...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeMA2pHN5WY

that's the main thing isn't it? Are today's players in general better than past players? I remember listening to some commentators saying players these days play on a new level.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
Anybody who says a player’s cue doesn’t matter is ignoring a lot of evidence.

Or they don’t play well enough for a good cue to make any difference.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
that's the main thing isn't it? Are today's players in general better than past players? I remember listening to some commentators saying players these days play on a new level.

You gotta think, back in the day you either hit a million balls, or befriended a better player or old timer and hoped they dropped a little knowledge from time to time. A lot of old timers took their knowledge to the grave rather than give anyone the cheese.

Now, everyone has a different idea, they enjoy teaching others what they know. You start out with knowledge that might have took an old timer 20 years or more to learn. You still have to build your stroke and hit a million balls, but you're not wasting years trying to get somebody to explain secret knowledge. Heck, I've read some guys would give the wrong info on purpose, or hit opposite spin and change their stroke if someone was watching.
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Byrnes famously wrote that if you put a good tip on a broomstick a good player will still make balls with a satisfying regularity.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
old days and old players

There was a time when a player played with one cue, one shaft, even one tip for years. He knew his equipment better than everyone chasing after the latest and greatest and odds are he would beat the fad chaser like a rented mule!

I gambled for pretty fair stakes sometimes. When I did I played off the wall and usually with a crooked stick. I would grab the nicest looking stick and give it a quick shake as I took it out of the rack. If it rattled I would look a little further. I hated playing with cues with loose weights! However, if it didn't rattle I would throw it on the table and give it the traditional quick roll.

I was already 99% sure it was crooked, that was why the bangers hadn't beaten it to death already. A few cues developed multiple curves, one near the tip and one in a different direction further back. These I didn't play with. Anything else, tip jumping up and down an inch, I'm good to go! I'll index the cue so it curves straight up and if I get a chance when my opponent isn't looking a bit of sandpaper and a BRAD tool will come out of my pocket for a little tuning up.

I probably won a couple dozen sticks over the years and sold them cheap or gave them away just as fast as I won them unless I had agreed to hold the stick a set time. My style didn't fit with a hinged cue.

Hu
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Top players are top players regardless of the time frame. Pretty hard to find clear video from the 50's or 60's...but here's a 1991 finals match between Nick Varner and Earl. Note the long ferrules on their cues, which leads me to believe they're using solid maple shafts.

(edit) Just noticed..Earl was CUTEC sponsored back then. Meaning he was using a fiberglass coated wooden shaft. In my opinion, even worse than solid maple.

Can you really see anyone with a 600 fargo, shooting whatever cue he likes from today, hanging with either of these guys?

I can't...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeMA2pHN5WY

Earl did not use the coated shafts, his were wood, and tapered way far back. He had the same taper for double what a normal pro taper would be.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
that's the main thing isn't it? Are today's players in general better than past players? I remember listening to some commentators saying players these days play on a new level.

I talked to several players that play now and played at a top level decades ago (Archer and Souquet specifically but there were some others), they were in agreement that the current players are better than those from earlier times, and there is a higher number of them since Asia and Europe took up pool more seriously. I remember watching the Asian players from 20-30 years ago, they had almost no chance vs the Americans, especially the women who were barely B players. Now if you see an Asian player in a pro tournament you can give them a good chance to be in the top 25% of the field.
 
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