Everyone can look. But only a few can see.

[jjohnson]

"...weak knees, rubbery stroke and failed mental awareness at contact."
What, do you think we're all a bunch on ingenues here who just fell off the turnip truck?

"Seeing is overrated." Place this near the top of the AZBilliards forum famous quotes list.

"...weak knees, rubbery stroke and failed mental awareness at contact."
"What, do you think we're all a bunch on ingenues here who just fell off the turnip truck?"
From little fish to big fish, to a greater or lesser extent, this happens every day in every pool hall every where.
I'm not saying this to anyone in particular.
But if the shoe fits...

I am surprised no one mentioned fatigue. You get tired, you lose.
Many a pool player lost their money because they didn't know when to quit.

Lastly, this might explain the previous point and this is the hardest one to swallow: Forrest Gump said it best, "Stupid is as stupid does."

 

[straightline]

I am surprised no one mentioned fatigue. You get tired, you lose.
Many a pool player lost their money because they didn't know when to quit.

From personal experience, boredom.

Oh yeah, laziness happens too.

The #1 scale tipper:

occult

Who ya gone call?////

 

[jjohnson]

From personal experience, boredom.

Oh yeah, laziness happens too.

The #1 scale tipper:

occult

Who ya gone call?////

I would classify boredom as a subset of Gump's, "Stupid is as stupid does." If you're bored you should be doing something else.
Laziness could be attributed to a physical or mental condition. Otherwise it is Gump, again.
Just like there is a blind spot in vision, maybe a person could have any number of "blind spots" either physical or psychological. Brain wiring issues because of having formed bad habits or brain trauma. Or psychological / mental, for instance, a person plays pool to relax, like a mere pastime. Like me, I play pool to get to sleep. Hah. Or a player sees that his opponent is getting perhaps uncontrollably angry and the last time this happened with a different opponent in another pool hall it ended in a fight. And this opponent is a dangerous and possibly a little stupid looking person. Subconsciously you may want to miss. Shark bait. There are many reasons people fail or reach a plateau they can't overcome. Some are reasonably excused while others are not. Like Sax said, "You either got it or you don't." Don't have it? Then get serious and get it. No sob stories here.

Occult? I've thought about this. Some people put the "dog" on you either unintentionally or intending to. The idea of putting the dog on someone goes back thousands of years. When your opponent starts to sense you are about to beat them they expend energy, essentially cursing you or even wishing you dead. Yes, that extreme. Either they just feel the disaster approaching or from your very first shot in a match they want you dead. Either way, some people can feel this energetic tension and falter. Others sense it and are strong and stand up to it instinctively not even realizing it. But others take it in stride knowing what's up. They are down on a shot then get up snarl or even smile then get back down refocus then make the shot with position. Occult could be very real, maybe?

 

[straightline]

I would classify boredom as a subset of Gump's, "Stupid is as stupid does." If you're bored you should be doing something else.
Laziness could be attributed to a physical or mental condition. Otherwise it is Gump, again.
Just like there is a blind spot in vision, maybe a person could have any number of "blind spots" either physical or psychological. Brain wiring issues because of having formed bad habits or brain trauma. Or psychological / mental, for instance, a person plays pool to relax, like a mere pastime. Like me, I play pool to get to sleep. Hah. Or a player sees that his opponent is getting perhaps uncontrollably angry and the last time this happened with a different opponent in another pool hall it ended in a fight. And this opponent is a dangerous and possibly a little stupid looking person. Subconsciously you may want to miss. Shark bait. There are many reasons people fail or reach a plateau they can't overcome. Some are reasonably excused while others are not. Like Sax said, "You either got it or you don't." Don't have it? Then get serious and get it. No sob stories here.

Occult? I've thought about this. Some people put the "dog" on you either unintentionally or intending to. The idea of putting the dog on someone goes back thousands of years. When your opponent starts to sense you are about to beat them they expend energy, essentially cursing you or even wishing you dead. Yes, that extreme. Either they just feel the disaster approaching or from your very first shot in a match they want you dead. Either way, some people can feel this energetic tension and falter. Others sense it and are strong and stand up to it instinctively not even realizing it. But others take it in stride knowing what's up. They are down on a shot then get up snarl or even smile then get back down refocus then make the shot with position. Occult could be very real, maybe?

Boredom happens. Nobody can stay inspired for longer than they're inspired. Compound with slow players, rocks, nits...
Schnoarrr...

I believe the occult is real. Has been since the dawn of man probably and even before that I'd guess. There's way more public record on the dark arts than any kind of pool ever. I'm not a practitioner but I do know it's not to be taken lightly.
Even innate mental abilities factor in. Any time two get down over a game there's a wrestling of wills. DOD has been into all that MJ 12, ESP, whatever mental function they could weaponize. - since the dawn of awareness probably as well.

 

[gregcantrall]

Some people put the "dog" on you either unintentionally or intending to.

This reminds me of....

It ain't the size of the dog in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog.

Another favorite quote comes from a friend that played basketball professionally.

The taste of blood excites me.

"On the pool table it's fun to shot back after they have run a rack. " would be my motto.
Act all big and physically aggressive if you want to see my best game.

 

[ShootingArts]

This reminds me of....

Another favorite quote comes from a friend that played basketball professionally.
"On the pool table it's fun to shot back after they have run a rack. " would be my motto.
Act all big and physically aggressive if you want to see my best game.

I think Bustamante was the show stopper when he was gambling, I think $3,500 sets. The other player won the break and ran out the first set. Bustamante was instantly ready to go again.

"I ran out the set and you want to go again?"

"I haven't shot yet."

I forget who he was playing. Have to wonder if they felt like an underdog after just running a set!

Hu

 

[garczar]

I think Bustamante was the show stopper when he was gambling, I think $3,500 sets. The other player won the break and ran out the first set. Bustamante was instantly ready to go again.

"I ran out the set and you want to go again?"

"I haven't shot yet."

I forget who he was playing. Have to wonder if they felt like an underdog after just running a set!

Hu

IIRC at the Pheasant Run, maybe Starchers event one year Archer ran(race to 13) the set from the flip. Busti jacked the bet, won the next st and Archer bailed. Pretty stout.

 

[ShootingArts]

IIRC at the Pheasant Run, maybe Starchers event one year Archer ran(race to 13) the set from the flip. Busti jacked the bet, won the next st and Archer bailed. Pretty stout.

Pretty stout indeed!

It was a tournament set that I believe it was Rodney Morris lost without getting to the table. Somebody asked him how he did afterwards. "I dogged the lag."

Hu

 

[jjohnson]

Boredom happens. Nobody can stay inspired for longer than they're inspired. Compound with slow players, rocks, nits...
Schnoarrr...

I believe the occult is real. Has been since the dawn of man probably and even before that I'd guess. There's way more public record on the dark arts than any kind of pool ever. I'm not a practitioner but I do know it's not to be taken lightly.
Even innate mental abilities factor in. Any time two get down over a game there's a wrestling of wills. DOD has been into all that MJ 12, ESP, whatever mental function they could weaponize. - since the dawn of awareness probably as well.

Cure for boredom - if your inspiration is waning: jack the bet.

 

[boogieman]

Or a player sees that his opponent is getting perhaps uncontrollably angry and the last time this happened with a different opponent in another pool hall it ended in a fight. And this opponent is a dangerous and possibly a little stupid looking person. Subconsciously you may want to miss. Shark bait.

If I see someone like this getting riled up, I hold their feet to the fire. Just see if you can help them closer to the edge. Exploding is cathartic for them. Play 4 safes in a row, shoot in a lackadaisical butt raised style while playing the "instructors" or play text book on the free flowing guys, etc. Unless the person is packing heat push them until they explode. On the table of course.

I've personally caused one very good player to break his brand new stick that he had just bragged about buying for $3500. It was his birthday and was a present to himself. I felt bad about that but I honestly played him fair and square. I've also beat a decent player and 2 minutes later saw him outside in the smoking area punching the side of the building until his knuckles were bloody. I never said one word to either of them before or after their little hissy fits and never mentioned the event to them after the fact. Just hit them with a constricting play style that tightens up the more they struggle.

It was some of the funniest shit I've ever witnessed. It's even better because I'm a nobody on the table until I am. I might be a touch sadistic when it comes to pool.

Emotional control and emotional intelligence should not be overrated when it comes to this game. As the poet once said "Check yo-self before ya wreck yo-self." This stuff is on each individual. Master it and it is beneficial. If I see a loose cannon, I'm just hoping for a spark to hit their fuse. And don't get this wrong, I'm not a tough guy, avoid arguments and fighting. I don't fight because if I'm actually in a situation where a fight is needed I don't like when the switch is flipped to the on position. But it takes something serious for that, I'm not itching for a fight in any way.

If I'm not taunting or disrespecting an opponent or sharking/whatever how am I responsible for them behaving like a toddler? Have fun with it. Highly situational of course, don't go antagonizing a scrapper and act surprised when you end up tasting blood.

 

[boogieman]

"I dogged the lag."

Great attitude right there!

 

[ShootingArts]

ggg

If I see someone like this getting riled up, I hold their feet to the fire. Just see if you can help them closer to the edge. Exploding is cathartic for them. Play 4 safes in a row, shoot in a lackadaisical butt raised style while playing the "instructors" or play text book on the free flowing guys, etc. Unless the person is packing heat push them until they explode. On the table of course.

I've personally caused one very good player to break his brand new stick that he had just bragged about buying for $3500. It was his birthday and was a present to himself. I felt bad about that but I honestly played him fair and square. I've also beat a decent player and 2 minutes later saw him outside in the smoking area punching the side of the building until his knuckles were bloody. I never said one word to either of them before or after their little hissy fits and never mentioned the event to them after the fact. Just hit them with a constricting play style that tightens up the more they struggle.

It was some of the funniest shit I've ever witnessed. It's even better because I'm a nobody on the table until I am. I might be a touch sadistic when it comes to pool.

Emotional control and emotional intelligence should not be overrated when it comes to this game. As the poet once said "Check yo-self before ya wreck yo-self." This stuff is on each individual. Master it and it is beneficial. If I see a loose cannon, I'm just hoping for a spark to hit their fuse. And don't get this wrong, I'm not a tough guy, avoid arguments and fighting. I don't fight because if I'm actually in a situation where a fight is needed I don't like when the switch is flipped to the on position. But it takes something serious for that, I'm not itching for a fight in any way.

If I'm not taunting or disrespecting an opponent or sharking/whatever how am I responsible for them behaving like a toddler? Have fun with it. Highly situational of course, don't go antagonizing a scrapper and act surprised when you end up tasting blood.

Had an old boy that played at the same hall I did. Every few months he would get mad and slap his shaft across the rail and shatter it in the days of forty or fifty dollar shafts. Maybe he got a volume discount.

He was playing next to me when he lost a set to a better player. Crash! The stick hit the rail, a few inches higher than he intended. Shattered an expensive butt and he spent about ten minutes picking up points and inlays, other components too. He was going to take it to the cue smith and ask him to fix it. I know what I would have told him.

All the guys breaking things, hitting walls and crap, they are trying to say they are better than they just played. No you aren't or you wouldn't need to show out all the time.

Hu

 

[George the Greek]

I had a steady customer ( nice guy) and he rapped the cue on the rail and broke the shaft and then he broke the butt. He said he should be winning with the spot I was giving him (6-red snooker) and he's quitting me for life. Two days later he came to the poolroom and looked at me and said ok let's play lol. Treat your customers with respect goes a long way I say. I was already over spotting him and robbing him and could've given up another 1 or 2 black balls but he might've been insulted.

 

[jjohnson]

If I see someone like this getting riled up, I hold their feet to the fire. Just see if you can help them closer to the edge. Exploding is cathartic for them. Play 4 safes in a row, shoot in a lackadaisical butt raised style while playing the "instructors" or play text book on the free flowing guys, etc. Unless the person is packing heat push them until they explode. On the table of course.

I've personally caused one very good player to break his brand new stick that he had just bragged about buying for $3500. It was his birthday and was a present to himself. I felt bad about that but I honestly played him fair and square. I've also beat a decent player and 2 minutes later saw him outside in the smoking area punching the side of the building until his knuckles were bloody. I never said one word to either of them before or after their little hissy fits and never mentioned the event to them after the fact. Just hit them with a constricting play style that tightens up the more they struggle.

It was some of the funniest shit I've ever witnessed. It's even better because I'm a nobody on the table until I am. I might be a touch sadistic when it comes to pool.

Emotional control and emotional intelligence should not be overrated when it comes to this game. As the poet once said "Check yo-self before ya wreck yo-self." This stuff is on each individual. Master it and it is beneficial. If I see a loose cannon, I'm just hoping for a spark to hit their fuse. And don't get this wrong, I'm not a tough guy, avoid arguments and fighting. I don't fight because if I'm actually in a situation where a fight is needed I don't like when the switch is flipped to the on position. But it takes something serious for that, I'm not itching for a fight in any way.

If I'm not taunting or disrespecting an opponent or sharking/whatever how am I responsible for them behaving like a toddler? Have fun with it. Highly situational of course, don't go antagonizing a scrapper and act surprised when you end up tasting blood.

Enjoyable post.

It was in '75 when I went with a new but short lived acquaintance to a Rocky Mount pool hall. He was a player. He told me he had come in second place in the New York straight pool tournament. That would have made it around the late 60's. I think his name was Rick. Anyway, it was a ring game. Near and along one side of the pool table where I sat on a stool, was an 18" wide divider, you know, where you can place drinks or whatever. So here I am, watching the game, with my arms resting on this counter top. And sitting right there, easily within arms reach, was a shiny silver .357 (I believe: it was big) revolver with maybe a 4" barrel and brown inlay grip just sitting there. It seemed all alone without an owner. Everybody, and I mean everybody anywhere near that pistol, acted as if it wasn't even there. There were no drinks nearby, no pack of cigarettes close. Basically, just me. Someone in that game wanted to make sure every one knew what the stakes were.

 

[VVP]

Marked this thread for reading because I thought I would be able to find some nuggets in it, but was bitterly disappointed.

From what I understand there is a difference between looking and seeing. In trapshooting, "looking" is basically what you call a soft focus, where before you call for the target you just look out into the field without seeing anything in sharp focus. When the target emerges, you change to a hard focus where you "see" only a part of the target and in theory the gun goes to what you are seeing.

I thought the OP was going to discuss something to the effect that "looking" is when you look at the whole object ball and "seeing" is when you identify the micro-dot (as Mark Wilson calls it) where you want to hit.

My interest is how do you identify that micro-dot even at an amateur level? I often see Gorst standing behind the OB and looking at the line to the pocket. I figure he is looking for the micro-dot, but he would walk back to the cue ball without keeping his eyes on the OB, so I am not sure how he is able to mark that dot. If this is something someone can explain, I would be very grateful. Of course, my thinking about what he is looking at could be entirely wrong.

 

[straightline]

Marked this thread for reading because I thought I would be able to find some nuggets in it, but was bitterly disappointed.

From what I understand there is a difference between looking and seeing. In trapshooting, "looking" is basically what you call a soft focus, where before you call for the target you just look out into the field without seeing anything in sharp focus. When the target emerges, you change to a hard focus where you "see" only a part of the target and in theory the gun goes to what you are seeing.

I thought the OP was going to discuss something to the effect that "looking" is when you look at the whole object ball and "seeing" is when you identify the micro-dot (as Mark Wilson calls it) where you want to hit.

My interest is how do you identify that micro-dot even at an amateur level? I often see Gorst standing behind the OB and looking at the line to the pocket. I figure he is looking for the micro-dot, but he would walk back to the cue ball without keeping his eyes on the OB, so I am not sure how he is able to mark that dot. If this is something someone can explain, I would be very grateful. Of course, my thinking about what he is looking at could be entirely wrong.

Here's some pool balls. Notice all the surface details. You can take a mental snapshot of how the contact point sits or how the line comes through the ball - there are several more I can detail if you're curious. Regardless you can take this snapshot back to your shooting position where you can figure the cue ball into all the abstract reasoning the brain should do automatically.

There are many concise and precise ways of looking at a shot as it is shot. They're mostly known. Ask and somebody will volunteer the info. Ask me and as long as you're not working with the ETC guys, I'll post you the carpentry of it.
Keep in mind this thread is JJ's and seems to be holding for his video.

 

[gregcantrall]

When I am playing well I see my reflection in the cueball.

 

[boogieman]

Marked this thread for reading because I thought I would be able to find some nuggets in it, but was bitterly disappointed.

From what I understand there is a difference between looking and seeing. In trapshooting, "looking" is basically what you call a soft focus, where before you call for the target you just look out into the field without seeing anything in sharp focus. When the target emerges, you change to a hard focus where you "see" only a part of the target and in theory the gun goes to what you are seeing.

I thought the OP was going to discuss something to the effect that "looking" is when you look at the whole object ball and "seeing" is when you identify the micro-dot (as Mark Wilson calls it) where you want to hit.

My interest is how do you identify that micro-dot even at an amateur level? I often see Gorst standing behind the OB and looking at the line to the pocket. I figure he is looking for the micro-dot, but he would walk back to the cue ball without keeping his eyes on the OB, so I am not sure how he is able to mark that dot. If this is something someone can explain, I would be very grateful. Of course, my thinking about what he is looking at could be entirely wrong.

Spacial awareness. Some people can walk around in their house in the dark, some people need nightlights. Also you can kind of take a sight picture of the ball, where the stripe/number/markings are and use that as a reference.

Spacial awareness can be trained but for whatever reason some people naturally are better at it. In my opinion some of it is done at a subconscious level, so it does help to actually walk around the table and give your head a chance to see what's on the table. After breaking I like to make a lap around the table. Sometimes I'll do it during the rack if there are particularly tough layouts. I'd imagine if I were a touch less lazy I'd walk around the table more often. More info on where the balls are sitting is usually a good thing.

 

[VVP]

Spacial awareness. Some people can walk around in their house in the dark, some people need nightlights. Also you can kind of take a sight picture of the ball, where the stripe/number/markings are and use that as a reference.

Spacial awareness can be trained but for whatever reason some people naturally are better at it. In my opinion some of it is done at a subconscious level, so it does help to actually walk around the table and give your head a chance to see what's on the table. After breaking I like to make a lap around the table. Sometimes I'll do it during the rack if there are particularly tough layouts. I'd imagine if I were a touch less lazy I'd walk around the table more often. More info on where the balls are sitting is usually a good thing.

I guess you are saying the same thing as straightline above. I am not yet at a point where I can recognize patterns quickly. I hope to get there someday.

I noticed that there is a general consensus that pool players are willing to give advice. I personally have not experienced that. When I started 5 years ago I got some advice. As I got better and started to be on par with some people they stopped playing against me and I have not been getting any help. I used to pay to put a guy in tournaments and he flat out told me that it took years for him to learn what he knows and he can't share his knowledge. I offered to pay a 630 Fargo for lessons and he made excuses that he does not coach. I heard him tell another person one day "why should I help him so that he can beat me one day." I am just a 478 Fargo right now mainly playing in Joss tournaments on 9 footers. Problem is that I shoot trap in the summer and don't have much time for pool. Anyway, I hope to find a good local coach one day.

 

[boogieman]

I guess you are saying the same thing as straightline above. I am not yet at a point where I can recognize patterns quickly. I hope to get there someday.

I wouldn't know a pattern if it smacked me upside the head. Once you know where the balls are, that's where they are. Depending on how well you get shape You might have to pick the best route or shot out of 5 strong candidates. Just daydream all you want while standing up. You know the ideal spot for the CB, but you can also see an alternative route if you have to hit the eject button. If I'm unsure of myself on a particular day, I might think 3 or 4 balls ahead. When I'm in monster mode I don't even consciously think about it, no second guessing or other anxieties. Just look at it for a bit then go into shooting mode. If I get overconfident on a regular day and start juicing balls that I shot smooth normally, I know with 100% confidence that my fundamentals need some polish.

I noticed that there is a general consensus that pool players are willing to give advice. I personally have not experienced that. When I started 5 years ago I got some advice. As I got better and started to be on par with some people they stopped playing against me and I have not been getting any help. I used to pay to put a guy in tournaments and he flat out told me that it took years for him to learn what he knows and he can't share his knowledge. I offered to pay a 630 Fargo for lessons and he made excuses that he does not coach. I heard him tell another person one day "why should I help him so that he can beat me one day." I am just a 478 Fargo right now mainly playing in Joss tournaments on 9 footers. Problem is that I shoot trap in the summer and don't have much time for pool. Anyway, I hope to find a good local coach one day.

I'm kind of in the same boat with local instructors. I'm lucky that I made a handful of really good friends in league that are actually into the game. We kind of teach each other new stuff we learn or how to do certain shots etc.