I never mind giving advice. "Just give it a good hard whack, that always works for me."
Hu
Hu
Everyone can look. But only a few can see.
- Thread starter jjohnson
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If you can drive a car, you got it.
One thing about retaining the contact point that works is dropping a vertical line to the cloth, placing the tip of your cue there and pivoting over the cue ball to the reciprocal tangent.
RED line is the object ball line terminating at the contact point.
Purple line drops vertically to the cloth.
Blue line is the pool cue pivoting over the identical reciprocal on the cue ball.
It takes a few tries to see and more important, <trust> this visualization but there it is.
Almost forgot the last step. The actual shoot line will be parallel and center ball. You won't be limited to center ball but that's another section...
People may call marking. If they are bone headed about this (there are no marks) you can eventually get it to a quick point to determine the stick angle and get in place based on that.
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Still want to shoot
Well-known member
Anger and pool do not mix well. Back in my 20s when we were not at the pool hall, all us regulars were at a house party.. was always one or the other.
To get a game from a better player it was either gambling. (paying a much better player to play if there was no chance of winning) Or talking shit.
I had been talking shit to a friend for a week or two and it was misinterpreted. We were all drinking at a house party and he was waiting for me outside when it cleared out with one of those giant arm length red pipe wrenches. I had to talk him down and explain that i respected his game and was talking shit trying to get him to play. He was so pissed, just kept saying he wanted to fight.
I said I'm not fighting while your holding that. lol
I believe all Gorst is doing is getting a better idea where all the balls are. So when he gets down on the shot he has a better sense of the 3-D layout or depth perception/relationship of the balls and pockets so he can more precisely line up his shot.
You learn something new every day: "micro-dot."
I believe I explained: once you have chosen the object ball and the pocket then cue ball path and spot position, the answers to all of your questions follow automatically: can be deduced with exactness precisely. But my concept of Ultimate SEEING and Execution will show/explain a process or technique or step by step mental "tool" that gets results guaranteed. The "micro-dot" will be revealed.
Did Mark Wilson tell you how to do any of this? This reminds me of a shot I saw Keith Thompson make. I was watching Cole run rack after rack. Must have been between 60 and 80 balls. Effortlessly. Leaning up against the next table was Keith. Cole placed the 8-ball against the middle of the foot rail. Then he placed the cue ball against the middle of the head rail. "Squirrel, make this shot." Keith pushed himself away from the table he was leaning against and smoothly snatched his cue that was also leaning up against the table. He strode up to the head of the table behind where the cue ball was resting against the rail. In a single movement he immediately got down on the shot with open bridge, took one practice shot, the cue stick tip passing straight over the cue ball for about 6 - 8 inches, went right into his back stroke and shot. I watched the 8-ball march right down the foot rail and right into the right corner pocket. That is what they call, "being in stroke." He shot it quicker than Earl Strickland gets down and shoots his quickest shots.
Now I have described this shot to many people over the years. I was at Hard Times Bellflower during a "big" tournament. They had portable bleachers set up in addition to the regular tiered cushioned seating. I was seated immediately behind Jose Parica. He was explaining to me the correct pronunciation of Dennis Orcollo's name. I was telling Parica about Keith Thompson and that shot. Immediately, a Pilipino player or backer who overheard me says, "A Pilipino can make that shot."
Every time I tell the tale of this shot I always get the response, "Oh, you just hit the rail first with righthand english," as if it were no big deal. But no one ever told me how to make it happen. They can tell me what needs to be done but no one ever even tried to tell me how to do it. This is how it goes all the time.
Did Mark Wilson or anyone else explain to you how it is consistently done then showed you? Were they able to do it repeatedly to convince you that this "micro-dot" was anything more than a minimal reference to explain away an idea that they didn't have time to get into further? Did they offer to teach you what needs to be done to answer the "how" you seek?
How it was done is not, "Oh, you just hit the rail first with righthand english." It is ultimately about execution/performance. Could you make the shot Keith made? He obviously had a technique. Check this out: "once you have chosen the object ball and the pocket then cue ball path and spot position, the answers to all of your questions follows automatically: can be deduced with exactness precisely." The how, the execution/performance to make the shot, also follows automatically. There are a million ways to miss that shot. There is probably only one way to make it. It is there for the taking. I believe Ultimate SEEING and Execution will prove to be the full/complete answer to the "how."
Is this bit of black magic, a distillation of other players' or original with you. And is it a new secret spell?
Next question(s), why are so many dogs struggling to make a buck? Don't they know you da man to pay?
Is your life in danger for this gold?
Still waiting for the promo.
You know there's a quality vs quantity component as well.
Pool not quantum mechanics.
More and more about less and less... culminating in everything about nothing...
Or in the case of the original quote, more and more about more and more until it's all irrelevant.
Or pool specific,
certainly no political progress, better um defense I think, oh yeah there's the E- cronym guys selling pool research by the arcsecond...
Where does your product belong?
Missing because of fatigue may or may not be your own fault.
I've heard some players in tournaments had to stay up for twelve hours straight in match play. They didn't make the schedule.
Some players haven't gotten enough sleep and are not well rested.
Some players haven't eaten and just ran out of energy.
Age has just caught up with some players. They have lost their edge. Their cellular mitochondria just can't produce the energy it once did when they were young.
But to ignore these issues when you need to play to win is not wise.
If everything about pool is known and if all the information is available either for free or paid then why the struggle?
Why is there a Fedor, Joshua, Shane, Eklent, Carlo, etc.?
Why are there not any AZBilliards forum members on this list as far as I know?
I gather that experts have all the answers.
So, any experts have excuses, oh, excuse me.
Any "reasons" to explain?
Any suggestions how to get any one here on that list?
Like I said, knowing what to do is not doing.
In the end, making the shot is about execution/performance.
I am sure all would agree that the pros use a process.
Repeatable and consistent to the highest degree humanly possible.
I guess any exact precise process is not known except among the "upper echelon" players.
There we go: secrets these processes obviously must be.
Assuming you have at least natural or correctable 20/20 vision so you can focus easily on the balls and table,
what are you looking at yet failing to SEE or imagine then visualize?
Is your brain not wired properly because of trauma, drug abuse, poor diet, lack of exercise, etc.
Are any of your senses not up to par, such as balance?
If you are within generally acceptable pool condition, you can be taught and efficiently learn and perform at a very high level.
It is not because of not enough practice.
You could say it is not enough good practice or the right practice.
These are generalities that offers nothing else.
So again, why are there not any AZBilliards forum members on this list that I am aware of?
This is what it is:
It is not practicing efficiently using the Ultimate SEEING and Execution techniques/tools/process on all aspects of your game at all times.
This is mildly intensive work requiring focus and paying the closest attention to detail.
You will have all the skills necessary to do this.
"paying the closest attention to detail" is a generality, as well, unless you have the techniques to make this happen.
I mentioned that some say you do not need an instructor. I would agree but their may be exceptions I can't think of.
Here is why:
Why do you need an instructor to tell you what he sees as your pool problems?
You can already see what they are for yourself.
If you can't then this is your problem:
You cannot see what you yourself are doing?
I find this hard to believe.
You can see your pool problems but don't know how to correct them?
Most if not all of your fundamental pool problems and their solutions are well documented on YouTube or on websites online for free.
But it is your choice to seek the aide of an instructor.
Why is there a Fedor, Joshua, Shane, Eklent, Carlo, etc.?
Why are there not any AZBilliards forum members on this list as far as I know?
I gather that experts have all the answers.
So, any experts have excuses, oh, excuse me.
Any "reasons" to explain?
Any suggestions how to get any one here on that list?
Like I said, knowing what to do is not doing.
In the end, making the shot is about execution/performance.
I am sure all would agree that the pros use a process.
Repeatable and consistent to the highest degree humanly possible.
I guess any exact precise process is not known except among the "upper echelon" players.
There we go: secrets these processes obviously must be.
Assuming you have at least natural or correctable 20/20 vision so you can focus easily on the balls and table,
what are you looking at yet failing to SEE or imagine then visualize?
Is your brain not wired properly because of trauma, drug abuse, poor diet, lack of exercise, etc.
Are any of your senses not up to par, such as balance?
If you are within generally acceptable pool condition, you can be taught and efficiently learn and perform at a very high level.
It is not because of not enough practice.
You could say it is not enough good practice or the right practice.
These are generalities that offers nothing else.
So again, why are there not any AZBilliards forum members on this list that I am aware of?
This is what it is:
It is not practicing efficiently using the Ultimate SEEING and Execution techniques/tools/process on all aspects of your game at all times.
This is mildly intensive work requiring focus and paying the closest attention to detail.
You will have all the skills necessary to do this.
"paying the closest attention to detail" is a generality, as well, unless you have the techniques to make this happen.
I mentioned that some say you do not need an instructor. I would agree but their may be exceptions I can't think of.
Here is why:
Why do you need an instructor to tell you what he sees as your pool problems?
You can already see what they are for yourself.
If you can't then this is your problem:
You cannot see what you yourself are doing?
I find this hard to believe.
You can see your pool problems but don't know how to correct them?
Most if not all of your fundamental pool problems and their solutions are well documented on YouTube or on websites online for free.
But it is your choice to seek the aide of an instructor.
I mentioned that a few times I was freaked out watching Cole shoot. But never dwelled on it because there were too many other things about Cole himself and his game that were much more interesting. I likened his stance to a skeleton. It was because while I watched him stroking up making all his final adjustments simultaneously with straight blond nearly shoulder length hair hanging down above the table, I could see emphasized every bone in his body. I could see his skeleton. He was quite thin with no body fat but he was muscular nevertheless. When he got his warm up strokes finished he was like a statue. Perfectly frozen perfectly balanced perfectly in line perfectly motionless. His muscle control could manipulate his skeleton precisely and hold it there. This image was always striking. Couldn't help catching anyone's eye even if they didn't know what they were looking at. So here he was, about 18-19 years old showing off to this 15-16 year old kid. He would rotate his head to the right like an owl nearly 180 degrees while not moving and shoot the shot perfectly. I'm sure many people can make shots while intentionally not looking but he was certainly a master. Didn't think of it at the time but I should have asked him to run a rack of 9-Ball like that. It would have been interesting to see.
Maybe because most of us here choose to work a regular job, have a place to live, a family life, and make pool a fun avocation.
And even in our mediocrity some of us have defeated Open championship players like SVB and Nevel in competition ;-)
Lou Figueroa
I'm sure there
are many more
examples
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So, you keep repeating the phrase, term, title, whatever: Ultimate SEEING and Execution (the capitalization of seeing is a new wrinkle, lol).
You've exceeded the usual level of ballyhoo here for a new thingie. Whatyagot?
Lou Figueroa
just spit it out, man
You've exceeded the usual level of ballyhoo here for a new thingie. Whatyagot?
Lou Figueroa
just spit it out, man
Pretty much nails why most aren't great pool players or whatever hobby they chase. It isn't the center of their life. Generally those that devote their lives to pool become upper level if not great. I think the chinese have came on big in pool simply because it has became government backed. They grab youngsters maybe three years old. You are going to be a gymnast. You are going to play ball. You are going to be a pool player. From there they brute force things making children put in many hours a day of training and practice. A few in other places do these things of their own free will.
I eventually found things I liked better but in over a decade of playing pool sixty or eighty hours a week I never burnt out and didn't want to play pool. It was what I did. It was easier and more fun to make money at pool than my day job and I could drink all the beer I wanted while I did it. What wasn't to like?
I read all this about precision and doing everything exactly the same every time like a robot, somehow there doesn't seem to be any enjoyment in that. Few things require more precision and repeatability than a benchrest rifle but still we can dance with the wind which is a pleasure.
Much of pool success is hours on the table. If it isn't enjoyable or forced on someone they aren't going to put in the hours.
We have cut a few laps around seeing and Seeing and SEEING and SeEiNg already. Past performance is a strong indication JJ will be a distant memory in a few years having made little more than a ripple in the pool world if that much.
Years ago I somewhat tongue in cheek talked about the chicken aiming system on here. Actually something I saw wading birds doing. Gives you a little more than 1/2 view of your target. Funny thing, those few degrees of the backside of your target did seem to help when I clowned around with it at the pool room. Years later somebody told me they still used my chicken vision aiming method!
Hu
So is this a Cole Dickson tribute? The Cole Dickson method revelation? In/En quiring minds want to know.
How come he played second fiddle to Keith?
How come he played second fiddle to Keith?
I bring up Cole or Keith Thompson for 2 reasons: I think they are interesting stories and they emphasize a pool fundamental, usually.
Cole was in his prime when he was about 18-19. That would make it around 1968-1969, or so. I am not going to go into what may have led to his pool shooting decline. I was only at one match up where Cole played Mexican Al in a pool hall in Hayward, CA on Tennyson, I think it was. He was good friends with the owner/manager and they played after closing. They played 9-ball on a bar table $100 a set freeze out. You couldn't quit and you only won when you got 3 sets ahead. Cole won. I was the kid stuck in Fremont, CA. I don't know where Cole was born, but when I knew him he had been in Fremont for many years growing up there. Louis the owner of Fremont Family Billiards knew Cole from a young age. He told me Cole had been in a few fight over pool. He said that Cole had won some serious money from a guy once and the guy refused to pay him. Now Cole was really young at the time. So later on Cole's father confronts the guy and he changes his tune and pays up. I had a classmate I went to high school with, John T. who was friends with Cole. They used to go golfing together. John told me that Cole wrapped his set of golf clubs around a tree because he said golf was throwing off his pool stroke. I only saw Cole about a half dozen times whenever he came back into town from being away for months at a time from being on the road. Anyway, I never saw Cole compete anywhere else. So I don't know who he played or how it might have turned out or when. But I never heard of anyone ever beating on Cole in pool until after 1975. I saw Ray Suden(sp?) then who grinned something to the fact that he had busted Cole. But I don't know.
Cole was in his prime when he was about 18-19. That would make it around 1968-1969, or so. I am not going to go into what may have led to his pool shooting decline. I was only at one match up where Cole played Mexican Al in a pool hall in Hayward, CA on Tennyson, I think it was. He was good friends with the owner/manager and they played after closing. They played 9-ball on a bar table $100 a set freeze out. You couldn't quit and you only won when you got 3 sets ahead. Cole won. I was the kid stuck in Fremont, CA. I don't know where Cole was born, but when I knew him he had been in Fremont for many years growing up there. Louis the owner of Fremont Family Billiards knew Cole from a young age. He told me Cole had been in a few fight over pool. He said that Cole had won some serious money from a guy once and the guy refused to pay him. Now Cole was really young at the time. So later on Cole's father confronts the guy and he changes his tune and pays up. I had a classmate I went to high school with, John T. who was friends with Cole. They used to go golfing together. John told me that Cole wrapped his set of golf clubs around a tree because he said golf was throwing off his pool stroke. I only saw Cole about a half dozen times whenever he came back into town from being away for months at a time from being on the road. Anyway, I never saw Cole compete anywhere else. So I don't know who he played or how it might have turned out or when. But I never heard of anyone ever beating on Cole in pool until after 1975. I saw Ray Suden(sp?) then who grinned something to the fact that he had busted Cole. But I don't know.
Keith Mcready incidentally. Never met Keith Thompson and only know what he posted here.
Murhkuh.
Zero incentive for these guys to get a footing on the next level.
Murhkuh.
Zero incentive for these guys to get a footing on the next level.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Sometimes I can shoot as straight as anyone, stroke as good as anyone, run balls as good as anyone. The game is 90% mental once you have the basics and knowledge but that's my weakness. Focus and attention is very difficult. I can do it for about 3 racks then my head is toast. It may jump back in the game after a couple racks, but the pros are mentally strong. They can sustain focus for hours and hours.
I'm not saying I'm dumb (though I may be, do dumb people realize they are dumb?) but the focus isn't there. It takes extreme discipline to be consistently "on" and most people aren't built that way. Most people have to have money or prestige (or drugs) involved to perform at a high level for a long time. Something about the pros suggest they are wired differently. No real "secret" IMHO but there might be. You don't know what you don't know.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I'd like to hear more about this! If you watch a chicken's head it is dead level most times, even when moving. I think keeping your eyes level, even with fatigue and body wear and tear is of the utmost importance. I've talked about this before, there are even videos using a chicken as a steady cam.
If you look at a wading bird especially if they are going to strike deep underwater they do keep their eyes level and they don't turn their head side to side, they move it side to side while keeping their eyes aimed dead forward. I can see where one could work as a steady cam.
Anyway, holding your head as still as possible while moving it side to side with eyes locked on an object ball gives a little more than our normal 180 degree view of a sphere. It seems to improve our spatial awareness just a touch. Seems to work for the egrets, cranes, herons, all of the long necked birds I spent hours a day watching when I was into outdoor and wildlife photography.
I was playing and being silly when I first did it in a pool hall. I was surprised to learn it had some merit. Worth trying when trying to line up that table length razor thin cut that is half faith anyway. It gives you a tiny bit more to work with and I think gives a slightly better understanding of exactly how far the ball is away.
Hu
At Hard Times Bellflower there was a house pro, Dave Hemmah. Al "Little Al" Romero had his cue shop up stairs. He told me Dave has beaten several top pros. I believe local Tang Ho has as well. I am aware that there are some very good players that at any given place and time can occasionally beat a name player. This is why I said, "Why are there not any AZBilliards forum members on this list as far as I know?" As far as I know. Speaking of Little Al, over the years I would mention occasionally, only to him, that I thought Cole was better than Efren. He would never agree. I was coming from the point of view that in his prime, Cole was so good, he could play anyone heads up 9-ball and stood at minimum an even chance of winning, where even the rolls could make the difference. Now, Little Al also knew what he was talking about. He told me that he didn't start to get real good until he was about 40 years old. He was in such demand that he would get phone calls to get on a plane to fly to Texas. Not because he was a fish/loser but because he had a reputation on having a willingness to play anybody anywhere anytime for any amount (my assumption.) Someone, probably a backer, had set up a match and the game was on. He told me he had played Cole and that Cole took a little bit of money from him. That's testimony of how good Little Al's game was and that he wisely knew better than to keep playing what proved to be a risky bet or not worth the hassle. I had told Little Al that the reason I thought Cole edged out Efren in my estimation was because of his powerful stroke and his command of that powerful stroke. About a year before the CoVid lock down when Hard Times Bellflower was still in business Little Al and I were sitting together in the stands looking down on table #6. I believe Efren was playing. Little Al leaned over and softly said that he agreed that Cole had been better. Now I am assuming he meant that overall, in 9-ball, in his prime, Cole edged Efren as I had believed. It wasn't a "win" for my contention, it was just a thing. Little Al probably wouldn't even remember it.
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