Face square?

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
As you know, usually this forum is relatively quiet. Debates are usually a couple of back and forth types of posts that end fairly quickly. This kind of thing in this forum happens time and again with Matt. I'm not the only person who has challenged his opinion here. If you look back at his posting history you will see how many times he has been challenged and how he famously changes his story. There never is a resolution with him. The only thing that will end it is when the challenger decides to let Matt have the final word, because he must have the final word. I'm about done making my point, so I'm about to let him have the final word.
Fran, regardless of history, in this thread, nobody changed their story. You were clearly in the wrong in the way you dismissed Matt's factual statement and said people would have to he stupid to go along with it. On this one, he was right. Basically saying that when you have to turn your neck more in order to square up the face, you increase the strain on the neck and open yourself up to some wear and tear over time that can hurt people is an obvious fact. Morra do8ng so till he could no longer continue his career as a right hander because of his neck pain is proof enough. You could just as easily stamd parallel to the shot line as one would in an extreme stance and square the face from there and feel the stretch in your traps at the base of the neck first hamd. It's a real thing, not some fringe opinion. And again, face square for most stance alignments amd most regular bodies will he just fine. But as a general statement, a more neutral head alignment relative to the body will always stra8n the neck less than a big turn of the head. Silly to argue orherwise.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fran, regardless of history, in this thread, nobody changed their story. You were clearly in the wrong in the way you dismissed Matt's factual statement and said people would have to he stupid to go along with it. On this one, he was right. Basically saying that when you have to turn your neck more in order to square up the face, you increase the strain on the neck and open yourself up to some wear and tear over time that can hurt people is an obvious fact. Morra do8ng so till he could no longer continue his career as a right hander because of his neck pain is proof enough. You could just as easily stamd parallel to the shot line as one would in an extreme stance and square the face from there and feel the stretch in your traps at the base of the neck first hamd. It's a real thing, not some fringe opinion. And again, face square for most stance alignments amd most regular bodies will he just fine. But as a general statement, a more neutral head alignment relative to the body will always stra8n the neck less than a big turn of the head. Silly to argue orherwise.
I have not been arguing anything other than head off line, tilted head and one eye ahead of the other. Nothing else, which is why I explained to you that although some things that he posted were valid, using them as reasoning for his conclusions was wrong. When a person suffers from a pathology, compromises must be made. There's no question about it, however, doing things like placing your head off line IN ANTICIPATION of maybe possible future neck issues, due to the nature of the pool stance, which is what Matt was explaining, is wrong.

New England tour player Barbara Stock, was experiencing extreme shoulder and neck pain and asked me to take a look. I'm saying her name because she has posted before about seeing me and how I corrected her stance and how her pain went away. Her problem was that she was standing perfectly parallel to her cue and leaning forward hard on her harm. I adjusted her feet, kept her head position the same and she was pain-free after that. Barbara was lucky because no permanent damage had been done.

This is my final post to you. Feel free to have the last word. I've gone above and beyond trying to explain things to you. Enough now.
 
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WobblyStroke

Well-known member
I have not been arguing anything other than head off line, tilted head and one eye ahead of the other. Nothing else, which is why I explained to you that although some things that he posted were valid, using them as reasoning for his conclusions was wrong. When a person suffers from a pathology, compromises must be made. There's no question about it, however, doing things like placing your head off line IN ANTICIPATION of maybe possible future neck issues, due to the nature of the pool stance, which is what Matt was explaining, is wrong.

New England tour player Barbara Stock, was experiencing extreme shoulder and neck pain and asked me to take a look. I'm saying her name because she has posted before about seeing me and how I corrected her stance and how her pain went away. Her problem was that she was standing perfectly parallel to her cue and leaning forward hard on her harm. I adjusted her feet, kept her head position the same and she was pain-free after that. Barbara was lucky because no permanent damage had been done.

This is my final post to you. Feel free to have the last word. I've gone above and beyond trying to explain things to you. Enough now.
Head off line, I never defended so we good there.

"Tilt" is a vague word and I think we were using it differently. I, likely incorrectly, assumed tilt was just referring to the angled view from having one eye ahead of the other. If it was meant as one eye higher than the other I did not address this but can easily confirm with just my own moving around of my head that a higher left eye tilt to the head does reduce the stretch on the right side of the neck as well. Personally I don't think this is necessary if one already has a more neutral head alignment relative to the body, but if someone is particularly stiff and has limited mobility/flexibility in the neck region, a tilt may help relieve any strain from getting in a more standard position (which, again, will work great for most people, esp if they get their feet right as you demo'd with your example of B.Scott).

The last bit on one eye ahead of the other is precisely the source of our disconnect on this and why I was disagreeing with you. By definition, a square face is the only way both eyes will be even with one another. Anything short of square will have the left eye ahead of the right. So, if advocating for a more neutral head alignment relative to the body, that automatically means that the left eye must be ahead of the right to some degree. I play this way. Many pros play this way. After the initial discussion in this thread, OP abandeonned playing with a square face finding reduced strain and improved comfort and endurance and yes, he too, by definition must be playing his left eye forward of the right (whether he has an accompanying tilt to further reduce strain or not).
 

GoldCrown

Pool players have more balls
Gold Member
Silver Member
SO... what did the OP learn so far? Is he cured....straightened out (no pun). Where are we dqu?
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
To quote you:

"2. Take a step forward with the foot opposite your shooting arm, then bend down, not forcing your head over the cuestick, but with the better goal of bringing your head straight down, to one side of your shooting arm. As your head comes straight down, it will remain to one side of the shot.

3. Optional step. Bring your head in somewhat over the cuestick as you like. I allow my head to swivel on the neck, as I can still see with binocular vision easily, though my head has rotated somewhat on the axis of my spine."
Besides ducking all I said about Mike Sigel, who, like me and many of your pro friends, shoots with one eye ahead of the other, you AGAIN snipped my actual, factual words:

"...I allow my head to swivel on the neck, as I can still see with binocular vision easily, though my head has rotated somewhat on the axis of my spine..."

Of course, even though I have over 1,000 pool articles posted, you keep returning to the same one or two canards.

AND as I said the prior time you brought up this article, it is evident in the photo my vision center/line of sight is EXACTLY as described above in my post about Sigel and me.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
As you know, usually this forum is relatively quiet. Debates are usually a couple of back and forth types of posts that end fairly quickly. This kind of thing in this forum happens time and again with Matt. I'm not the only person who has challenged his opinion here. If you look back at his posting history you will see how many times he has been challenged and how he famously changes his story. There never is a resolution with him. The only thing that will end it is when the challenger decides to let Matt have the final word, because he must have the final word. I'm about done making my point, so I'm about to let him have the final word.
My final words for now (if you don't make yet another personal attack):

1) I'm asking again for you to address ME when you have comments regarding ME.

2) You continually use personal attacks and avoid FACTS. Yet again you speak of head TILT, which is nonsense.

3) Debates here usually go back and forth more concisely because you and the chief "debaters" are hostile, keeping potential worthy instructors and students from posting. I defend myself and others when you are rude.
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
SO... what did the OP learn so far? Is he cured....straightened out (no pun). Where are we dqu?
He probably put this thread on ignore by now lol. He did report back a few pages ago... He abandoned trying to play with a square face. His play, comfort level, and endurance have all improved. He mentioned he got what he was after in this thread and asked that the coach arguments be taken some place else....so much for that lol. But at least he got the help he wanted from the thread.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
He probably put this thread on ignore by now lol. He did report back a few pages ago... He abandoned trying to play with a square face. His play, comfort level, and endurance have all improved. He mentioned he got what he was after in this thread and asked that the coach arguments be taken some place else....so much for that lol. But at least he got the help he wanted from the thread.
The OP gets added help/has gotten added help off line, too, from several helpful people.

I would LOVE to "argue" (debate) Fran and others here (it's an instructors' opportunity thread) re: FACTS. I feel (to an extent) I must defend myself--and others--from personal insults, lies and attacks.

I'd ask all, not just you, Wobbly, to realize the people who attack me continually on this forum are likewise rude to everyone else--except their own selves when they tag team their rudeness.
 

GoldCrown

Pool players have more balls
Gold Member
Silver Member
But at least he got the help he wanted from the thread.
HAH......Help and Headache. As for the disagreements, arguments, disputes.....nobody cares. It's bad taste for all parties. Maybe there should be a separate thread for members that engage called "Gloves Off"
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
HAH......Help and Headache. As for the disagreements, arguments, disputes.....nobody cares. It's bad taste for all parties. Maybe there should be a separate thread for members that engage called "Gloves Off"
My gloves are on.

I care about the disputes and disagreements (pool teaching).
 

GoldCrown

Pool players have more balls
Gold Member
Silver Member
My gloves are on.

I care about the disputes and disagreements (pool teaching).
When is enough enough. I'm referring to the direct personal disagreements. What purpose does going on and on serve. If one person backs off it's over and the subject stays direct and moves on.
 

dquarasr

Registered
I’m still following this thread for a number of reasons. 1) There may still be nuggets we can use. 2) It helps those of us reading this subsection to evaluate the input of contributors, instructors and non-instructors alike. As for instructors, tone demonstrated here helps us match our learning styles to teaching styles when we choose to engage their services.
He probably put this thread on ignore by now lol. He did report back a few pages ago...
 
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