Face square?

[Patrick Johnson]

I do see a need to reprove people when they are rude.

I see a need to point out misinformation spread by self-proclaimed "instructors".

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I see a need to point out misinformation spread by self-proclaimed "instructors".

pj
chgo

I did not spread misinformation, but information. Mike Sigel's stance led--admittedly after many years--to back and neck issues.

Also, when Dan asked when I learned this information, I thought he'd heard something more recent about improvement (the last I heard was more chiropractic, trying to avoid surgery) and so inquired.

After, not that it was your conversation, you were rude and said "don't hold your breath". Unneeded and I've come to expect better from you.

By the way, you seem not to know the definition of "self-proclaimed", which Oxford has as "described as or proclaimed to be such by oneself, without endorsement by others".

 

[FranCrimi]

You are continuing personal attacks, yet I'll respond, since you've made false facts also:

1) I am not "spinning" (your continued personal attack used to substitute for true facts), I am presenting facts of anatomy and reality.

2) "Matt's point is that due to the nature of the pool stance, many pros place their entire head off the shot line to avoid neck strain. He also advocates tilting your head." I wrote neither thing nor do I ever teach head tilt or ever teach "head off the line to avoid neck strain". You may be confused since you recently balked when I suggested head off line as part of a teaching drill for aim and trust--not neck strain avoidance--so I'll let that go. Again, both my teaching and books and websites never advocate either false position above.

3) Another personal attack was "learn how to adjust a player's stance" -- I have helped hundreds of students, in person, adjust their stance. Just last week on a AZ thread I helped people adjust their stances to avoid, even cure, lower back pain.

4) I NEVER WROTE "many pros hurting". I wrote that many students (who don't play five hours a day since their youth to accomodate a low, sometimes stretched pro stance) are getting hurt by "everyone square" since square is NOT meant for everyone, but for some. Then YOU WROTE "name a pro" and I responded "Mike Sigel", whose hurt has been credited to needing to square his face against his unusual stance. You and I both ought to know our student's health profile if they play more casually than a pro and have any unusual stance positions.

Any normal person, who stands with feet and heels together erect, then steps forward with their left foot, then bends from the waist and or hips, and also stretches the left hand several feet in front of the right hand, develops a degree of torso angle, the head and neck then naturally move with the torso and turn off the original squared position. SOME teachers then advocate squaring the face.

I DO advocate squaring the face in the pool stance IF it doesn't compromise aim (since as you know MANY PROS do NOT square their face when their head is on the shot line, their head remains rotated with the torso, not stretched against the torso) and IF it doesn't cause them to hurt. A 6'4" player with a big, wide stance, especially if their left foot is far from parallel to the shot line, whose head comes about 30 degrees rotated above the shot line NOT tilted, is going to be unhappy if YOU TELL ALL YOUR STUDENTS TO SQUARE.

My conclusion is you are picking a fight just to pick a fight. At least debate WHAT YOU TEACH, since I'm sure you don't tell ALL your students to square their face. You have no students who've played at an A or even a shortstop level for 20 years with a rotated head?

Entering the spin zone again. You just keep 'clarifying' by adding new things. Your original posts on this topic were clear enough, particularly the article you wrote about the secret to a good stance.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Entering the spin zone again.

Rather, I attempted to clarify with my facts your errors.

"Spin zone" tells me, "Matt, you got the facts right, I'm wrong, so I'll just insult you with a personal attack again."

Next time you debate pool at AZ, don't make personal attacks, but use FACTS.

 

[Dan White]

I did not spread misinformation, but information. Mike Sigel's stance led--admittedly after many years--to back and neck issues.

Also, when Dan asked when I learned this information, I thought he'd heard something more recent about improvement (the last I heard was more chiropractic, trying to avoid surgery) and so inquired.

Unless he specifically told you that his particular stance led to his back problems, as opposed to simply a lifetime of playing pool and just being alive, I'd say he's doing fine for a 70 year old.

It seems a stretch to use him as an example of how a particular stance can cause neck problems.

For the record it seems clear that the more sideways your body is the more difficult it is to square your head to the shot.

 

[FranCrimi]

Unless he specifically told you that his particular stance led to his back problems, as opposed to simply a lifetime of playing pool and just being alive, I'd say he's doing fine for a 70 year old.

It seems a stretch to use him as an example of how a particular stance can cause neck problems.

For the record it seems clear that the more sideways your body is the more difficult it is to square your head to the shot.

He also made custom cues for many years, which could also affect someone's posture and neck.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Unless he specifically told you that his particular stance led to his back problems, as opposed to simply a lifetime of playing pool and just being alive, I'd say he's doing fine for a 70 year old.

It seems a stretch to use him as an example of how a particular stance can cause neck problems.

For the record it seems clear that the more sideways your body is the more difficult it is to square your head to the shot.

Yet I was reporting what Mike Sigel thinks to be true--and his healthcare providers. And chronic pain affected his playing level for long years before the more recent attempts to heal differently. So, at least I understand why you asked about a time/date. Thanks for your patience with me, I should have said so when you first asked me.

Despite these facts, I agree with you--it is a stretch, but prompted by Fran, who asked for a pro, and I instantly thought, "I guess she forgot what her good friend Mike told her!"

And I would more likely teach every student to square if all pros did it, sure I would, most of what pros do makes superb pool sense, but many pros do not square to the shot.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

He also made custom cues for many years, which could also affect someone's posture and neck.

You are now, surely, spinning! Why do you accuse people of what you do?!

Standing twelve hours a day for 30 years with your feet in Jersey and your head and neck on Roosevelt Island, playing pool and breaking Nine Ball racks at 30 m.p.h., is a neck brace waiting to happen.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Entering the spin zone again. You just keep 'clarifying' by adding new things. Your original posts on this topic were clear enough, particularly the article you wrote about the secret to a good stance.

You mean the article that has always stated facts that you misread and misquoted again and again--and now yet again--depsite being corrected by these FACTS now, as then?

I'd take it personally, except that you are obnoxious to everyone at AZ, except other obnoxious AZ "contributors".

 

[FranCrimi]

You are now, surely, spinning! Why do you accuse people of what you do?!

Standing twelve hours a day for 30 years with your feet in Jersey and your head and neck on Roosevelt Island, playing pool and breaking Nine Ball racks at 30 m.p.h., is a neck brace waiting to happen.

So what's the fix? Stand the same way and move his head off-line? I'm just trying to understand where the head off line thing comes into play. When should a player put his head off line? When should a player tilt his head? When should a payer set up with one eye ahead of the other? Does Mike fit into any of these fixes? If not Mike, then what pros fit into any of the three things?

What fix would you recommend for Mike?

 

[sparkle84]

I have a solution to this argument. How bout if 007 just calls or emails Mike or Nick or any other of his "pro" friends and has them post here and verify his claims.
I'm sure they'd be more than happy to do that.
007 quote "Yet I was reporting what Mike Sigel thinks to be true--and his healthcare providers." If he can't reach Mike for some unforeseen reason maybe he could have the "healthcare providers" verify. I'm sure everyone would accept their word for it. After all, they are "professionals".

 

[BilliardsAbout]

So what's the fix? Stand the same way and move his head off-line? I'm just trying to understand where the head off line thing comes into play. When should a player put his head off line? When should a player tilt his head? When should a payer set up with one eye ahead of the other? Does Mike fit into any of these fixes? If not Mike, then what pros fit into any of the three things?

What fix would you recommend for Mike?

I NEVER WROTE "HEAD OFF LINE". This is why you DON'T understand "where the head off line thing comes into play" as you wrote. It DOESN'T.

I NEVER WROTE "TILT YOUR HEAD". This is why it's wrong to ask "When should a player tilt his head?" He or she SHOULDN'T.

This is now the third post in which I'd like you (and AZ readers) to understand, I NEVER WROTE nor do I EVER teach these things. They are wrong.

I'm exhausted trying to tell you and others, when you trash me as a teacher, as least trash what I teach, not what you think or hope I teach.

**

I'm 6'2" with an average width stance. My vision center is over the stick/shot line. My left eye is closer to the o.b. than my right eye.

This is Mike Sigel's stance, years ago:

There is a nice range of motion for our neck, but as shown here--since you asked re: a pro (not many pros), and then were shown wrong, here, not just Mike's upper body but his lower body is nearly 90 degrees pointed away from his cue stick. You AGREE WITH ME about Mike's stance, you won't admit it here, though, and have likely told students NOT to stand like Mike at the tables. Had you taught Mike 50 years ago, you would have fixed his stance, his arms and shoulders would look similar, and his head, but his neck would have been under less strain. He would still be in the Hall of Fame, but with more wins in recent decades.

Now Mike is also left-handed, but like me and most, does not square completely to the shot line, so his right eye is closer to the o.b. than his left eye. He is thus partially squared to the line, to see the shot, but not fully squared, it is obvious his chin is above the stick but his head is rotated, why one eye is closer to the o.b.

He looks as if squaring his head more to the shot line will snap his neck, and he will die.

Mike's current fix is a chiropractor and/or surgery. Keep praying for a good outcome for him!

Unless I misunderstand you, you are suggesting that Mike square his head still more, which will kill him.

You're killing me, in a sense, some laughter, some tears. Stop it.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I have a solution to this argument. How bout if 007 just calls or emails Mike or Nick or any other of his "pro" friends and has them post here and verify his claims.
I'm sure they'd be more than happy to do that.
007 quote "Yet I was reporting what Mike Sigel thinks to be true--and his healthcare providers." If he can't reach Mike for some unforeseen reason maybe he could have the "healthcare providers" verify. I'm sure everyone would accept their word for it. After all, they are "professionals".

You misused your scare quotes, again, Sparkle. Oxford says that scare quotes are "quotation marks used around a word or phrase when they are not required, thereby eliciting attention or doubts". Let me help you:

1) Mike and Nick are pool pros, not "pros". You meant to write, Matt's pro "friends" and not "pro" friends. See the difference?

2) And Mike and Nick are Hall of Fame professionals, not "professionals".

3) Chiropractors and medical doctors are healthcare providers, not "healthcare providers".

Here's another example for you. Can you see where your typical scare quotes need to be amended?

Earlier this week, Matt confirmed dates with his "pro" friend for a "paid" pool seminar, to be announced soon at AZ and other quality outlets. Matt and the playing "professional" will "demonstrate" trick shots, playing "techniques", and teach "students" for "money", because they are "pool" teachers and "pool" players.

 

[sparkle84]

All that aside, when can we expect a reply from Mike or Nick?

 

[dquarasr]

I respectfully request you all take your feud elsewhere.

I’m sure some of you will attempt to justify the debate here as trying to offer accurate information to your audience but it’s to the point of absurdity.

Please, just stop.

I’ve gotten what I needed from this thread as I had hoped when I started it and for that I thank you all. I have received some validation that the benefits I have enjoyed with my head pointed to the right with the cue under my vision center are not in my imagination and are real.

 

[FranCrimi]

I NEVER WROTE "HEAD OFF LINE". This is why you DON'T understand "where the head off line thing comes into play" as you wrote. It DOESN'T.

I NEVER WROTE "TILT YOUR HEAD". This is why it's wrong to ask "When should a player tilt his head?" He or she SHOULDN'T.

This is now the third post in which I'd like you (and AZ readers) to understand, I NEVER WROTE nor do I EVER teach these things. They are wrong.

I'm exhausted trying to tell you and others, when you trash me as a teacher, as least trash what I teach, not what you think or hope I teach.

**

I'm 6'2" with an average width stance. My vision center is over the stick/shot line. My left eye is closer to the o.b. than my right eye.

This is Mike Sigel's stance, years ago:

View attachment 693815

There is a nice range of motion for our neck, but as shown here--since you asked re: a pro (not many pros), and then were shown wrong, here, not just Mike's upper body but his lower body is nearly 90 degrees pointed away from his cue stick. You AGREE WITH ME about Mike's stance, you won't admit it here, though, and have likely told students NOT to stand like Mike at the tables. Had you taught Mike 50 years ago, you would have fixed his stance, his arms and shoulders would look similar, and his head, but his neck would have been under less strain. He would still be in the Hall of Fame, but with more wins in recent decades.

Now Mike is also left-handed, but like me and most, does not square completely to the shot line, so his right eye is closer to the o.b. than his left eye. He is thus partially squared to the line, to see the shot, but not fully squared, it is obvious his chin is above the stick but his head is rotated, why one eye is closer to the o.b.

He looks as if squaring his head more to the shot line will snap his neck, and he will die.

Mike's current fix is a chiropractor and/or surgery. Keep praying for a good outcome for him!

Unless I misunderstand you, you are suggesting that Mike square his head still more, which will kill him.

You're killing me, in a sense, some laughter, some tears. Stop it.

To quote you:

"2. Take a step forward with the foot opposite your shooting arm, then bend down, not forcing your head over the cuestick, but with the better goal of bringing your head straight down, to one side of your shooting arm. As your head comes straight down, it will remain to one side of the shot.

3. Optional step. Bring your head in somewhat over the cuestick as you like. I allow my head to swivel on the neck, as I can still see with binocular vision easily, though my head has rotated somewhat on the axis of my spine."

 

[boogieman]

Jeesh... did I wander into The Aiming Forum?

 

[Dan White]

I respectfully request you all take your feud elsewhere.

I’m sure some of you will attempt to justify the debate here as trying to offer accurate information to your audience but it’s to the point of absurdity.

Please, just stop.

I’ve gotten what I needed from this thread as I had hoped when I started it and for that I thank you all. I have received some validation that the benefits I have enjoyed with my head pointed to the right with the cue under my vision center are not in my imagination and are real.

That's all that matters. Most times you'll get what you can out of a thread after the first 5 or 10 posts, or maybe a week. After that, the thread wanders off to where the wind takes it. If a topic branches off in your thread it isn't really practical to start a new thread to discuss.

 

[FranCrimi]

Jeesh... did I wander into The Aiming Forum?

As you know, usually this forum is relatively quiet. Debates are usually a couple of back and forth types of posts that end fairly quickly. This kind of thing in this forum happens time and again with Matt. I'm not the only person who has challenged his opinion here. If you look back at his posting history you will see how many times he has been challenged and how he famously changes his story. There never is a resolution with him. The only thing that will end it is when the challenger decides to let Matt have the final word, because he must have the final word. I'm about done making my point, so I'm about to let him have the final word.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I apologize for my delay in responding to your post.

I appreciate your concern and your facts. I agree the neck thing does not become a big issue, it merely gets aggravated with more unusual stances.

But it's not "my spat" since I'm not spatting, I'm citing facts, and receiving from someone else misquotes and personal attacks. I'm using reasoning and logic, not spatting, the more so since "spat" is "unimportant argument" and Fran could actually cause someone to hurt their game and/or their neck!

fair point. i should be more careful with my wording.

kinda felt like i was a moderator in a debate that devolved from what a debate should be. I jumped in bc Fran's post knocking ur factual explanation in #155 was way outa line and misleading for readers. I think you could have been more careful with ur wording when saying her advice hurts ppl tho bc as u have said prior and i corroborated, the square face MAY lead to neck issues as it puts more stress on the body than a more neutral alignment of the head relative to the body, but for most people not playing long hours and not using an extreme stance like Morra,a square face can be just fine. Thats really what i was trying to clarify.