Fair? No way to sell a cue!
- Thread starter VonRhett
- Start date
nwtflogan said:
THERE YA GO PARTNA! I AM A MEMBER, and DONATED. =)
You just paid without exposing your financial information.
Receipt ID: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
An email with your order summary has been sent to XXXXXXXXX
Merchant Contact Information
AzBilliards.com
Wow....internet raffles.....I love it...I need to start me some of these!!.....I used to shoot craps with a guy over the phone....I would roll the dice and tell him what he got.....I never hurt him too bad, because if I did, he wouldn't play anymore......he played dice over the phone with me for years....hell, some weeks he even won!!
I don't think it is unethical to run a for-profit raffle. Charities do the same thing when they raffle off things that they purchased to raffle off or donated items. The money brought in is profitable revenue. A non-profit charity is set up so that they do not return profits to investors. Charities still make profits that are used to fund their work and overhead.
In Vegas the vendors at the bug tournaments run raffles all day and many people end up with a lot fo good stuff from them. There are rules though about how the raffles can be run. You cannot sell tickets for MORE than the retail value of the item. You can only sell tickets with one unit value on them. No 3 tickets for $5 20 tickets for $10 type of schemes.
The tickets have to be drawn by the tournament director's staff. The winners have to be posted on a central board.
These rules came about because some vendors were abusing the raffle process, either deliberately or innocently.
I think people should be able to sell their cues via raffles. I think that it is a good way to allow people a chance to win something of higher value for less investment. Raffling has saved many vendors in Vegas from losing money at the big shows. There have been years when we sold ten, fifteen cases this way and made our expenses.
I think it's people's right to question them though and make sure that all practices are above board and above taint. Only because of the inherent ways to game the system.
I sure do miss the "stretch" method of selling tickets. Anyone else remeber that? (John - MCP)
In Vegas the vendors at the bug tournaments run raffles all day and many people end up with a lot fo good stuff from them. There are rules though about how the raffles can be run. You cannot sell tickets for MORE than the retail value of the item. You can only sell tickets with one unit value on them. No 3 tickets for $5 20 tickets for $10 type of schemes.
The tickets have to be drawn by the tournament director's staff. The winners have to be posted on a central board.
These rules came about because some vendors were abusing the raffle process, either deliberately or innocently.
I think people should be able to sell their cues via raffles. I think that it is a good way to allow people a chance to win something of higher value for less investment. Raffling has saved many vendors in Vegas from losing money at the big shows. There have been years when we sold ten, fifteen cases this way and made our expenses.
I think it's people's right to question them though and make sure that all practices are above board and above taint. Only because of the inherent ways to game the system.
I sure do miss the "stretch" method of selling tickets. Anyone else remeber that? (John - MCP)
I quit reading about halfway through page 3, so apologies if what I'm about to say has been mentioned already. it should be noted that I'm in Florida, which is kinda important, as you'll see shortly.
First of all, I see people complaining about "non-AZ'ers" buying "raffle tickets". Seems like most people are complaining that "only AZ members should be allowed to buy raffle tickets..." Well, what's to stop the person doing the raffle from having their "friends" sign up and join AZ just to join the raffle? Nothing.
But that should be the LEAST of your concerns. Why? Because ANY raffle held on this forum is 100% illegal. Yes, you read that right. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but regardless of your opinion, it's the law. Forget the comments about it being "unethical" to have their "friends" buy slots. It doesn't matter that raffles are held all the time, in whatever city/state/town you can think of. All it would take is one person filing a complaint with the AG in their state. Frankly, I'm surprised that hasn't happened already.
Secondly, I don't participate in the raffles. Why? Several reasons, the first of which I think it's simply throwing money away, "chance" or no chance. Secondly, and I'm sure I'll get a lot of heat for this, but here's the big reason: raffles are illegal. Period. The fact that AZ allows them to happen is astounding to me; the legal liability is simply too great, IMHO. All one person needs to do is complain to their Attorney General, and this forum could - and probably would - be sued and shut down as an illegal gambling operation.
Here's some info on raffles you may not know:
There is no requirement that you actually pay anything for a raffle ticket. That's because the government does not want people gambling or playing games of chance for money with anyone unless it's entirely the player's option to donate and how much to donate. The law says the tickets may be printed "Suggested Donation $XX.XX" but the rules say that every raffle or drawing in Florida must state that no consideration is needed to obtain a raffle ticket. So you can donate nothing if you wish or $1.00, whatever you wish. That's right; if you're conducting a raffle here on AZ, by law you MUST give me a free "slot" if I request it, else you are violating interstate gambling laws.
There is no limit how many tickets you can get for your "donation." The law says if there is a limit, of say one raffle ticket per person, or one per day, this must be stated in the rules of the drawing and on all printed material related to the raffle. Most fund raising groups don't bother to limit how many you can get because of ignorance of the law or a failure to put any rules into play for the raffle.
The raffle sponsors cannot cancel the drawing or refuse to give out all of the prizes advertised. And the date, time, and place of the drawing must be on all tickets and other printed material (which includes "printed" when it's read on this forum) advertising the raffle. And they must notify the winners even if they are not in attendance at the drawing. That's right: if you start a raffle, you cannot, for any reason (such as "not all the slots were filled/purchased") refuse to hold the raffle or award the prize, else again, you're violating interstate gambling laws. Furthermore, you must specify on what date the "drawing" will be held, and it must be held on that date, or you're...well, now I'm just repeating myself, and you get the picture.
Other things to be aware of before laying down any of your hard earned cash include checking to make sure the raffle is even legal under the state or local laws. In Florida, the department of education, in what seems be an ambiguous rule, says "raffles and other activities of chance shall not be conducted for school connected activities." But schools have lots of raffles.
A raffle sponsor may write into its rules that they can discontinue the drawing or cancel it if they don't sell enough tickets. Although illegal, it's done all the time. Buying a Chamber of Commerce raffle ticket? That's illegal in Florida, too. The reason being that although the chamber is not for profit, they are in fact organized to help local businesses, and not for doing "good" stuff for the community. So watch out, you might invest in a raffle and find the law or the event sponsor preventing you from collecting any prize at all!
Also, be aware that when you read the sponsor's raffle rules you will most likely find something that is illegal, so it's your money that may be lost if they mess up or intentionally or by mistake make an error in running the raffle. Another huge item to watch for: According to the Florida Attorney General, the sponsor must already own the prizes before selling tickets, or presumably have the money available to buy them.
He says they may not use ticket sales to get the money to then later buy the prizes. You may find that some raffles, especially high stakes drawings for homes, cars, boats, vacations, etc. will have sponsors that just don't have the money up front to buy the prizes, in which the fund raisers are gambling themselves that they will sell enough raffle tickets. That the fund raisers are purchasing prizes may be a shock to many raffle players. We always thought the prizes were donated because it's for charity! In some cases, prizes may be donated, but for larger prizes, they usually have to be purchased.
It does not matter if the person conducting the "raffle" is in Florida or not. Since I'M in Florida, if *I* buy a raffle ticket, the seller is bound by the rules in the State of Florida, in addition to the rules of whatever state THEY are in, AND the rules of Arizona, which is presumably where this forum is based. Period. Ever wonder why some contests says "not valid in X", where X is one or more states? There's your reason.
Finally, there are three states where ANY type of gambling, raffle or not, is completely illegal: Tennessee, Utah, and Hawaii.
I'm completely amazed that the owners of this forum allow raffles to be held, as they are 100% liable, legally, for running an illegal gambling operation as a result.
First of all, I see people complaining about "non-AZ'ers" buying "raffle tickets". Seems like most people are complaining that "only AZ members should be allowed to buy raffle tickets..." Well, what's to stop the person doing the raffle from having their "friends" sign up and join AZ just to join the raffle? Nothing.
Secondly, I don't participate in the raffles. Why? Several reasons, the first of which I think it's simply throwing money away, "chance" or no chance. Secondly, and I'm sure I'll get a lot of heat for this, but here's the big reason: raffles are illegal. Period. The fact that AZ allows them to happen is astounding to me; the legal liability is simply too great, IMHO. All one person needs to do is complain to their Attorney General, and this forum could - and probably would - be sued and shut down as an illegal gambling operation.
Here's some info on raffles you may not know:
- Most states have strict laws regarding a charity or non-profit organization's fund raising solicitation, including raffles and drawings. The reason being, whenever cash is changing hands and gambling is involved, there is the possibility of wrong doing either intentionally or by error.
- In Florida for instance, raffles or lotteries are highly regulated since the state wants to protect its citizens from illegal unregulated gambling, and not incidentally to not allow too much competition for its own Florida lottery, which has its own set of highly intricate rules and brings in millions of dollars daily.
- The laws about raffles and charity drawings in general usually are found in two places in the state's statutes: regulations about soliciations in general by non-profit or charitable organizations, and secondly "gambling" statutes which generally say raffles are illegal by individuals, but exceptions are provided to certain non-profit corporations raising money for a good cause.
- Also, it is illegal in *every* state to conduct a raffle and have said raffle only open to "members" of the organization conducting the raffle. Forcing people to join the organization just to play in the raffle is also illegal. Period. There is no state that does not have that as written law.
- Most all lotteries, drawings, and raffles - unless conducted by the state themselves - are being done illegally. Yes, that includes raffles here on AZ. I bet you're saying "But I see my local high school football team having a raffle every year to raise money. That can't be illegal, right?" You might think that the local school raising money for it's football team is doing everything legally, and the administration will in fact tell you "they've had fund raisers just like this for years." They say "We wouldn't be doing this if anything was wrong." But they are wrong. You can count on nearly all raffles as being entirely illegal or at the least breaking most of the state's gambling laws.
There is no requirement that you actually pay anything for a raffle ticket. That's because the government does not want people gambling or playing games of chance for money with anyone unless it's entirely the player's option to donate and how much to donate. The law says the tickets may be printed "Suggested Donation $XX.XX" but the rules say that every raffle or drawing in Florida must state that no consideration is needed to obtain a raffle ticket. So you can donate nothing if you wish or $1.00, whatever you wish. That's right; if you're conducting a raffle here on AZ, by law you MUST give me a free "slot" if I request it, else you are violating interstate gambling laws.
There is no limit how many tickets you can get for your "donation." The law says if there is a limit, of say one raffle ticket per person, or one per day, this must be stated in the rules of the drawing and on all printed material related to the raffle. Most fund raising groups don't bother to limit how many you can get because of ignorance of the law or a failure to put any rules into play for the raffle.
The raffle sponsors cannot cancel the drawing or refuse to give out all of the prizes advertised. And the date, time, and place of the drawing must be on all tickets and other printed material (which includes "printed" when it's read on this forum) advertising the raffle. And they must notify the winners even if they are not in attendance at the drawing. That's right: if you start a raffle, you cannot, for any reason (such as "not all the slots were filled/purchased") refuse to hold the raffle or award the prize, else again, you're violating interstate gambling laws. Furthermore, you must specify on what date the "drawing" will be held, and it must be held on that date, or you're...well, now I'm just repeating myself, and you get the picture.
Other things to be aware of before laying down any of your hard earned cash include checking to make sure the raffle is even legal under the state or local laws. In Florida, the department of education, in what seems be an ambiguous rule, says "raffles and other activities of chance shall not be conducted for school connected activities." But schools have lots of raffles.
A raffle sponsor may write into its rules that they can discontinue the drawing or cancel it if they don't sell enough tickets. Although illegal, it's done all the time. Buying a Chamber of Commerce raffle ticket? That's illegal in Florida, too. The reason being that although the chamber is not for profit, they are in fact organized to help local businesses, and not for doing "good" stuff for the community. So watch out, you might invest in a raffle and find the law or the event sponsor preventing you from collecting any prize at all!
Also, be aware that when you read the sponsor's raffle rules you will most likely find something that is illegal, so it's your money that may be lost if they mess up or intentionally or by mistake make an error in running the raffle. Another huge item to watch for: According to the Florida Attorney General, the sponsor must already own the prizes before selling tickets, or presumably have the money available to buy them.
He says they may not use ticket sales to get the money to then later buy the prizes. You may find that some raffles, especially high stakes drawings for homes, cars, boats, vacations, etc. will have sponsors that just don't have the money up front to buy the prizes, in which the fund raisers are gambling themselves that they will sell enough raffle tickets. That the fund raisers are purchasing prizes may be a shock to many raffle players. We always thought the prizes were donated because it's for charity! In some cases, prizes may be donated, but for larger prizes, they usually have to be purchased.
It does not matter if the person conducting the "raffle" is in Florida or not. Since I'M in Florida, if *I* buy a raffle ticket, the seller is bound by the rules in the State of Florida, in addition to the rules of whatever state THEY are in, AND the rules of Arizona, which is presumably where this forum is based. Period. Ever wonder why some contests says "not valid in X", where X is one or more states? There's your reason.
Finally, there are three states where ANY type of gambling, raffle or not, is completely illegal: Tennessee, Utah, and Hawaii.
I'm completely amazed that the owners of this forum allow raffles to be held, as they are 100% liable, legally, for running an illegal gambling operation as a result.
Last edited:
ridewiththewind said:Because it is not only ILLEGAL, but UNETHICAL as well. The intent of raffles are not meant to make a profit, but to offer a given pool of people the opportunity at an item that they may not otherwise afford to purchase...and to raise money for a non-profit organization, or a charitable cause. They are not meant for someone to profit off a group of people.
Honestly...those of you here who continue to try and justify making a profit are falling way short against the undeniable facts.
Additionally...when a raffle is being run, within the constrains of the law, the items available are being donated generally by businesses. The individual organizing the raffle does not have a vested interest in any of the items...which is why they are generally allowed to participate as well. In the raffle scenarios here...that is far from the case...and the organizer/seller should not be allowed to participate...and because non-members identities cannot be verified as NOT being the organizer/seller...they should not be allowed to participate as well.
As to opening up the raffles and cross-posting it to several different billiards forums...go ahead and try, and see just how fast the powers-that-be shut it down! This practice is nothing more than using AZB as a springboard for a net-wide free advertising sale. While no one can discount the marketing strategy, it is HIGHLY UNETHICAL! Not to mention an abuse of the privilege of being able to sell here at no cost to the seller.
Please note that I am not saying that all who choose to raffle here are guilty of this practice...but there are enough of those here that are abusing the privilege given to them...that it can come to no good end....and possibly end the raffle option all together.
Lisa
__________________
"Only a sucker would play someone using a Tucker" ~~ D.S.
[Quote/]
makes sense for a girl doesn't she?cueaddicts said:
(ducks)