Fake American Cuemakers cue??

Not that it's your place to judge, but replicas are simply replicas. They are to showcase the great designs and cuemakers' skills.

Perhaps you can explain further on this statement.

To me, building a replica is hardly a compliment to both the one building the replica and the one who designed it.
The cue maker who builds the replica will have to bear the burden of being labelled as a "replica"(or copycat) cue maker whereas the one who has his designs replicated has nothing to showcase or collect anything back for his designs.
However, that is just my opinion though as I know nothing much about cue designs.

You sound like someone who knows a lot about cue designs and original cue design work.
I would love to hear you sharing with us about how replicas are being able to showcase the great designs and cuemakers' skills.

Thank you in advance for your enlightenment.

Marcel<---knows nothing much about cue designs.
 
Ok, we're going to need to get a few cue experts in here to figure out the trademarks on certain cues, and these designs can no longer be replicated, as they are "counterfeit":

Plain Jane cue - TAD, Gina?
4 point cue - Balabushka? Szamboti? Spain?
6 point hi/lo - Southwest? Kersenbrock?
CNC floating points - Stroud?

I think that covers off any and all cue designs that are available today.

No one is allowed to make to make these designs ever again. They aren't original, and are copies of the masters that originally designed them.

And if you don't know this is all tongue-in-cheek, you need more coffee this morning.

Replicas are replicas. The real McCoy is just that - the real deal. There's room for both in the market. And I think it's highly unprofessional to post what was understood to be a private dealing onto a newsgroup. I don't think that Alan was asking the cuemaker to make counterfeits. He wanted replicas. Dean ran a bunch of replicas through Evan at Schon. I didn't hear anyone raining down on him.
 
None of the cue makers designs are patented and therefore no design is off limits to be copied.

If Philipino cue makers turn out a good looking cue at a competitive price oh well. The real cues will all hold value to some degree. Those values are diminishing because there are fewer buyers for vintage and high end cues, less players playing and less money for people to spend thousands on cues.

Cock fights like this do not alter the dynamics at play.
 
Guess I have to subscribe to this topic.

Here is how I feel about it.


I wouldn't make a business of it but I can certainly see why some do. And I can respect those who stand up and say they won't copy the designs of others. I happen to be someone whose designs were copied verbatim, whose designs are now currently being copied, and someone who also looks everywhere for inspiration. While I won't copy someone's case verbatim I have no problem taking interesting elements and doing my own version of it.

It's one thing when you are doing Bushka-esque designs...they have been done to death, and incorporate elements that are still used by well-regarded makers to this day. It's another altogether to ask someone to copy designs so instantly recognizable as Gina or BB...especially when the possibilities are there to be misrepresented as something that they would otherwise be. Not all potential buyers are saavy enough to be able to tell the difference between real and a 'copy'....especially if the 'copy' is very well done.

There is a difference between taking inspiration from, and copying another's work.

As to posting up the convo between the two...it is highly frowned upon to re-post AZB PM's without darn good reason. But, IMHO, when it goes out on a social media site like FB or Twitter..it's out there for the whole world to see...there are no 'take backs'. Which is why we here in the States are constantly warned about what we post up to those sites...you just don't know who's going to see it, and what they're going to do with it. Potential employers and even colleges and universities check out potential applicants social media accounts. If you want something to remain private, then don't post it to FB.

Yes, AlanVo was very aggressive with his requests to JoshKo. And when the latter declined, Alan continued on him in an increasingly aggressive manner. Then goes on to bash Filipino makers as to putting out inferior product. As has already been proven, there are Filipino makers who take great pride in their work...and then, like here in the States, there are others that don't. Inferior work is not specific to the Phillipines...it can be found worldwide.

Lastly...red bombing a member because he 'outed' you is unacceptable. Especially when one is outed by their own words. Suck it up and move on. I could have red bombed AlanVo for his red bombing JoshKo...but I didn't. Red reps are not designed to be used as a retaliatory tactic. We all get caught with our foot in our mouth at some point...you just try to not make that mistake again.
 
:yes:


And that's why I'd never argue with you-------------because I would never win.:yeah:

LoL! It's not about winning or losing...it's about sharing an opinion. The thing with opinions is, not everyone has to agree. That's what a healthy debate is all about...point and counterpoint.
 
None of the cue makers designs are patented and therefore no design is off limits to be copied.

If Philipino cue makers turn out a good looking cue at a competitive price oh well. The real cues will all hold value to some degree. Those values are diminishing because there are fewer buyers for vintage and high end cues, less players playing and less money for people to spend thousands on cues.

Cock fights like this do not alter the dynamics at play.

No matter how you want to slice it...cue design theft is wrong. Not to mention the total lack of imagination that it exhibits. Newer makers should be looking to blow through the envelope with regards to design...and there are some who do, and they're the ones that get recognized and receive the accolades, and as a result, garner the higher values.

As to the argument that not everyone can afford to buy a Gina or a BB, so buying a 'copy' is okay...I gotta say bunk. If you want a big cue like the aformentioned...then do like everyone does when they want to buy a car, or buy a house, or some other high-end item.....save up for it! Stop buying a lot of 'little' cues...and just save to buy the big cue.
 
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Indeed, I chose to be direct, and straight to the point, unlike most of you who would say one thing and backstab the following minute.

yes indeed, you were "straight" to the core, when he declined to do business with you, you turned to bash PHI cuemakers. well, if they are that bad, then why did you keep asking him whether he would do business with you, even after what you said about PHI cuemakers? Ah yes, I missed something, the price the price.

the phrase in red is extreme stereotyping from you Mr. Vo.

Not that it's your place to judge, but replicas are simply replicas. They are to showcase the great designs and cuemakers' skills.

I was not at all judging you, I just was not able to figure out your motives in insisting on the deal. I am completely ignorant about copycat/replica/design theft, and I cant see any "great" design and skill in doing so.

please enlighten me also.
 
No matter how you want to slice it...cue design theft is wrong. Not to mention the total lack of imagination that it exhibits. Newer makers should be looking to blow through the envelope with regards to design...and there are some who do, and they're the ones that get recognized and receive the accolades, and as a result, garner the higher values.

As to the argument that not everyone can afford to buy a Gina or a BB, so buying a 'copy' is okay...I gotta say bunk. If you want a big cue like the aformentioned...then do like everyone does when they want to buy a car, or buy a house, or some other high-end item.....save up for it! Stop buying a lot of 'little' cues...and just save to buy the big cue.
In places like the Phillipines our western view of right and wrong have no meaning. If there wasn't a market for knockoffs then they wouldn't exist. Cue design theft concept is nonsense that high end collectors through around to preserve their interests. As far as high end builders go if they do it better than everybody there is no issue with a copycat. So they aren't getting hurt either. No matter what all these forces be they destructive creative technological or economic are taking cue design where it's going. In the past 10 years I say cue design is expanding in quantum leaps.
 
In places like the Phillipines our western view of right and wrong have no meaning. If there wasn't a market for knockoffs then they wouldn't exist. Cue design theft concept is nonsense that high end collectors through around to preserve their interests. As far as high end builders go if they do it better than everybody there is no issue with a copycat. So they aren't getting hurt either. No matter what all these forces be they destructive creative technological or economic are taking cue design where it's going. In the past 10 years I say cue design is expanding in quantum leaps.

And yet, you have a Filipino, working with Filipino cue makers, to do what they feel is the right thing, which is to NOT steal someone else's designs. All one has to do is to look at the late Edwin Reyes' (Bandito) body of work to see that original thought and design is alive and well in the Phillipines. What was coming out of his shop was top-notch and creative work, and on caliber with what was being built here stateside. His passing was a great blow to the cue making community and to Filipino pool community as a whole.

Honestly...I feel your opinions of the lack of integrity as a whole amongst the Filipino community is way off the mark. Honest and dishonest people live all over the world. The fact that someone commissions a maker to copy exactly, a particular maker's elements, because they cannot afford to buy from the maker himself is dishonest. There are a LOT of maker's cues I simply cannot afford...I have never once asked another maker to copy those designs into a cue for me. Far from it, I personally find part of the journey of commissioning a custom cue is coming up with something that will be totally and uniquely my own...and with designs, I try very hard to do that. Sometimes it something as simple as the ringwork and veneer combinations, but I always try to add a 'twist'. I don't want to see my cue anywhere else.

Let's not forget how easy it is to pass off on eBay, a 'copy' as something other than what it is...happens more than you know.
 
As a maker....

and as someone who has been copied extensively.

This is my view.

When I spend a lot of time coming up with a design I don't like to see it copied. I know that I don't "own" it in the same way that I own a car.

Legalities aside, because designs CAN be owned and ARE owned in some legal systems, I want to talk about how it FEELS from a maker's perspective.

It feels good when someone thinks enough of my design to copy it. It feels rotten when someone copies my design substantially with zero credit given to me.

It feels rotten to see other people selling products with my designs and I am not making any money off that.

That's the "theft" that people are talking about. Here is my Mason case design.

1945-a-front.jpg


Here is a case by Instroke, my former company, that substantially copies it.

T1JA.0FwVbXXXXXXXX_!!0-item_pic.jpg_460x460.jpg


When I see this as a maker I have mixed feelings as described above. Of course I feel "flattered" that they still think enough of me to knock off my designs. But I know that every person who buys one of those cases is buying it because they like what I made and I am NOT making a penny off it.

Over the years though I come around philosophically to understand that this is simply how the works and it could not possibly work any other way. What I mean is that once a design is unveiled, legalities aside again, it belongs to the world. There is no way to tell 7 billion people you can't have this once you put it out there. If they can't get the original through "official" channels then they will create and distribute competing versions.

That's just the way it is.

If I am a farmer and I get double yields as my neighbor across the street with some method I developed how could I ethically and morally stop him from trying to copy whatever I did to get those yields? I can try to legally stop him and force him to pay me for my development time but the fact is that when an improvement is created then it shows everyone that it's possible and they rush to emulate it however they can.

That's how innovation works.

Now copying for profit, taking a design to make money off it, as in cue design copying, or any practically verbatim copying is "wrong" on some levels in my opinion because it does rob the creator of the fruit of his labor in a POTENTIAL sense. BUT it's not the same as robbing the creator of the ACTUAL goods created. Not the same as going into the orchard to rob the apples so carefully tended.

I once sat at the table of a case maker whose business at that time was primarily copies. I said to him why don't you innovate and create new models. He said who will pay for that? Who will distribute it? He said he is just a factory with the capability to make products and people bring him orders and he makes the least amount of money on those products. It's not his business to figure out whose design it is when he is responsible for feeding 100 people. I get that

I have come to see this issue from all sides, not just my own as a maker. While I won't copy anyone's work verbatim I am not ashamed at all to take inspiration from everywhere. That's how I operate. Other makers are far more artistic and they choose to follow their own vision of what a case should look like and stick to that. I think it takes all kinds to make a world.

While I can't be the type of person who would flat out copy another maker's work for profit I can't really condemn those who do. Everyone does what they need to do to survive. Sometimes what they do isn't wholly moral, not ethical, and in some places not legal. But as I said when I, as a maker, put a design into the world, I set it free whether I want it to be free or not.
 
sorry guys, i was pretty sick the past few days and was unable to reponse. First of all, I admit I did put the wrong title to this thread. Forgive me as I was so pissed off after the chat with Alan Vo and i used the wrong title. Anyway, this thread that I started is about the morality of the community. In true fact, there are bad sheep anywhere in the world, but if we sense that something is wrong, its each and everyone's responsibility in this small pool community to share and sound the alert.

Alan Vo made an apology to Mr Al Bautista stating that he was confused with Al Bautista and Anastacio Bautista... Thats not very logical in my sense. Alan Vo had been dealing with alot of big name mid-high end cue worth Thousandsss of dollars (recently an exceed he was offering at $4000), how could he have mixed up the 2 Bautista. But anyway, Aldex (son of al), had already informed me that they do not wish to pursue this case.

My peronal view is that, no matter how you appreciate someone's masterpiece, you SHOULD NOT copy it. Its good to get inspiration from those big cuemakers, learn from their experience BUT NOT 101% copy. An example, Apple spent million of dollars to build Iphone, but some countries just replicate, although the interface is different but the outlook are totally identical. Is that what you call "Appreciating Apple's Work".... Not to mention that we have not known IF any of the replica cue that Alan had made had been sold as Original. This morning I received an email from a former customer of Alan, he claim to had bought a close to $2000 cue from Alan, he is trying to contact the original cuemaker so that he will send the cue to him for authenticity check. And as this issue blow up big on social media site, I had since received alot of feedback and remarks about Alan Vo.

Its not for me to judge if Alan is right or wrong in Replicas... But my main point is how he bashed and insulted Filipino cuemakers. So far, few of the cuemakers had already made contact with me and we are considering to ban Alan Vo on our customer list.

ALAN VO, if you are following this tread, pls rear this in mind "EARN YOUR EVERY PENNY WITH A CLEAR MIND. MONEY IS NOT EVERYTHING, LEARN TO RESPECT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WANT OTHERS TO RESPECT YOU"

I dont care at all if i am given 1 or 10 or 100 red reps here... Or even if I am being ban from this forum. Nothing can stop me from fighting for the rights of the PH Cuemakers, and i will carry on exposing anyone who try to destroy this community. Period
 
This had been forwarded to Mr Anastacio Bautista for verification. Lets just wait for the reply.

ALAN VO, your arrogant and hostile attitude had made me really pissed off. I am working with a group of people now to gather more evidence and expose your doings. Lets see how to go around cheating those guys in PULO. (you know where that this and you know what u had done)

Se the attachment of a testimonial of ALAN VO.. this is only one of the many that had contacted me
 
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sorry guys, i was pretty sick the past few days and was unable to reponse. First of all, I admit I did put the wrong title to this thread. Forgive me as I was so pissed off after the chat with Alan Vo and i used the wrong title. Anyway, this thread that I started is about the morality of the community. In true fact, there are bad sheep anywhere in the world, but if we sense that something is wrong, its each and everyone's responsibility in this small pool community to share and sound the alert.
You have a beef with me, and you took it like a girl.


Alan Vo made an apology to Mr Al Bautista stating that he was confused with Al Bautista and Anastacio Bautista... Thats not very logical in my sense. Alan Vo had been dealing with alot of big name mid-high end cue worth Thousandsss of dollars (recently an exceed he was offering at $4000), how could he have mixed up the 2 Bautista. But anyway, Aldex (son of al), had already informed me that they do not wish to pursue this case.
Too many Bautistas, human mistakes, that's common. Also, never offered you any Exceed.

My peronal view is that, no matter how you appreciate someone's masterpiece, you SHOULD NOT copy it. Its good to get inspiration from those big cuemakers, learn from their experience BUT NOT 101% copy. An example, Apple spent million of dollars to build Iphone, but some countries just replicate, although the interface is different but the outlook are totally identical. Is that what you call "Appreciating Apple's Work"....
101% copy? You've inventing new things, that's a good start.

Not to mention that we have not known IF any of the replica cue that Alan had made had been sold as Original. This morning I received an email from a former customer of Alan, he claim to had bought a close to $2000 cue from Alan, he is trying to contact the original cuemaker so that he will send the cue to him for authenticity check. And as this issue blow up big on social media site, I had since received alot of feedback and remarks about Alan Vo.
I will invite said person to come to this thread and show proof that I sold something that was not I claimed it was. Please, do this for the sake of this community. If you dared to pull these kind of stunts, I can't wait to follow up.

Its not for me to judge if Alan is right or wrong in Replicas... But my main point is how he bashed and insulted Filipino cuemakers. So far, few of the cuemakers had already made contact with me and we are considering to ban Alan Vo on our customer list.
Excuse me? 3 bad experiences with PH cues are not bad enough? Ban me from your customers list if you want, I don't give a rat ass.

ALAN VO, if you are following this tread, pls rear this in mind "EARN YOUR EVERY PENNY WITH A CLEAR MIND. MONEY IS NOT EVERYTHING, LEARN TO RESPECT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WANT OTHERS TO RESPECT YOU"

I dont care at all if i am given 1 or 10 or 100 red reps here... Or even if I am being ban from this forum. Nothing can stop me from fighting for the rights of the PH Cuemakers, and i will carry on exposing anyone who try to destroy this community. Period
I'm not saying all PH cues are bad. Spoilers alert, you get what you pay for. So if you guys don't want to experience what I experienced, don't go through that route.





Oh and don't forget to get that mentioned person to come on here and show us his stuffs.
 
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This had been forwarded to Mr Anastacio Bautista for verification. Lets just wait for the reply.

ALAN VO, your arrogant and hostile attitude had made me really pissed off. I am working with a group of people now to gather more evidence and expose your doings. Lets see how to go around cheating those guys in PULO. (you know where that this and you know what u had done)

Se the attachment of a testimonial of ALAN VO.. this is only one of the many that had contacted me

Warped P2? Rofl.... Why did you erase his name? This ain't proof? Have some balls please. And post real proof, cause that screenshot looks like some kid badmouthing people, with flawed written English.
If you're still talking to that guy, tell whoever bought that to come on here and post. If he has access to gangsters, I don't see why he's being afraid of showing himself.
Bottom line, I'm happy to see if:
1. you can prove someone has bought something from me (payment proof required)
2. you can get that specific someone to prove his identity and post on here


Regarding PULO, never sold anything to anyone here. They're all low budget players.



p/s: so you decided to run off when confronted... nice!
 
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Maybe you should change your location to read Australia, since it's now obvious that you do not reside in California...it's very misleading to potential buyers/sellers who may mistakenly believe that you are Stateside, when in fact, you are not.
 
Guys, I think there should be an end to this issue. Everyone have seen and read all the contents. Its up to individual to judge. Its time all of us move on from here. Whoever is right or wrong does not matters anymore.. As the saying goes, One Man's Meat Is Another Man's Poison...

This Thread Will Be Close Within The Next 24Hrs.. Anything new that comes up will be put on a new post.
 
What about all the SW style cues/cuemakers?
Would you cry for them too? I'm sure most of you PH cuemakers will take on any SW style cue order.

I initially contacted you about wood availability, and when you don't have any good looking wood, I asked if you could copy designs. What would be wrong about it?

If your design is crap and undesirable, learn to take critics/feedbacks from customers who purposely give you business.

Just wanted to preserve this, so it can't call victim to the olde edit.

What's wrong with imitation? When the imitation is passed as the original.

Alanvo is clearly trash.
 
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