FARGO Ratings

How does one "look up" their rating? I went to the site, and could not find anywhere to do that. I only found the top 100 lists...

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT

You need to goto this link to do the lookup.
http://fairmatch.fargorate.com/

As someone who used to design web sites, I find that not having the fairmatch link on the main page of the fargo site to be not good web design.

By not putting the fairmatch link on the main page of the fargo site the site auotmatically produces a diffulculty on site visitors trying to learn their own rating. Thats bad web customer service. Its an easy thing to fix and do. So why isnt it done?

Glamour Dave
 
Go to;
http://fairmatch.fargorate.com/

Sign up (it's free) and search for a player (yourself)

or

Go to;
https://csibbm.com/Account/LogOn?ReturnUrl=/Member/Member

Sign up (it's free)
Answer all the questions Correctly!
CSI will then show you your info along with the rating they;
A. Have for you
B. Have given you

If it says "unable to determine who you are", after the questions you have;
A. Answered some of the questions incorrectly
B. have never played in a CSI sanctioned event and they don't have a record of you.
C. I'm wrong on "B" and CSI will correct me (Hopefully :) )



Where did fargo ratings get all their data from? I am listed and have a rating but I don't remember ever playing in an event that uses fargo ratings or submits results to fargo rating.
 
You need to goto this link to do the lookup.
http://fairmatch.fargorate.com/

As someone who used to design web sites, I find that not having the fairmatch link on the main page of the fargo site to be not good web design.

By not putting the fairmatch link on the main page of the fargo site the site auotmatically produces a diffulculty on site visitors trying to learn their own rating. Thats bad web customer service. Its an easy thing to fix and do. So why isnt it done?

Glamour Dave

I agree! It took blind luck for me to find the link.
 
Where did fargo ratings get all their data from? I am listed and have a rating but I don't remember ever playing in an event that uses fargo ratings or submits results to fargo rating.

As per Mike Page in other posts. 'Various places'
What is your rating?
 
Where did fargo ratings get all their data from? I am listed and have a rating but I don't remember ever playing in an event that uses fargo ratings or submits results to fargo rating.


I don't want to talk out of turn but the last time I talked to Steve late at Fargo Billiards the amount of data they were getting each day was huge. I don't recall the number, and I was shocked.

Mike, Steve, Ozzie and Mark are very connected in the Pool World at all levels. With that you are probably connected somewhere to someone that has data on you.

I encourage you to go to the websites people have mentioned, and also visit www.fargorate.com. Watch the videos. They may answer a lot of questions you are thinking about.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Shaw just went 4-0 to win the 10ft big foot challenge.

Were those matches calculated or maybe not updated yet?

#18 Shaw 792

Although Morra and Skyler had a lower ranking.
 
I don't want to talk out of turn but the last time I talked to Steve late at Fargo Billiards the amount of data they were getting each day was huge. I don't recall the number, and I was shocked.

Mike, Steve, Ozzie and Mark are very connected in the Pool World at all levels. With that you are probably connected somewhere to someone that has data on you.

I encourage you to go to the websites people have mentioned, and also visit www.fargorate.com. Watch the videos. They may answer a lot of questions you are thinking about.

Thank you.
I know, from your previous statements, you are and play within the FargoRate system.
You would have more insight than I would.

"....the amount of data they were getting each day was huge....."

Yes, and even if the data could dump right into the system, it would still take a lot of time. Just imagine all the pool data about yourself and take 2 aspects ;Who you played. What games you won. Over a 6 month period in league alone, 3 nights of play, round robin and match play, I play on average 165 games against around 70 different players. That's a lot of data for One person.
And worse, what if they have to restructure the raw data to be able to dump it in. What a headache! (This is where you give a heavy sigh thinking about how long and how difficult a particular project will be)
 
Where did fargo ratings get all their data from? I am listed and have a rating but I don't remember ever playing in an event that uses fargo ratings or submits results to fargo rating.

If your rating is 400, 525 or 625 then you've been assigned the "starter" rating for former Leisure, Open and Advanced division players respectively.

If it's something different from one of the starter ratings, I'm fairly certain they're using your league results and adjusting your rating from the results of your matches against your opponents that have [more] established Fargo ratings and, to a lesser degree, the results of your opponents against other opponents with [more] established Fargo ratings.

My concern, which I voiced to Mark Griffin in a FB conversation, is that the extrapolation of data is going to get REALLY thin in leagues where there are few, or even no, players with established Fargo ratings.

In my league, for example, the most established Fargo rating has a "robustness" of only 113. In fact, only 3 players have a rating "robustness" of over 20. The robustness of my rating, for instance, is only 15.

As I understand it (mind you, I'm fairly familiar with ELO ratings of this sort), EVERYONE ELSE'S ratings are going to be extrapolated from their results in their league matches against the 3 "established" players mentioned above (along with their results against me and the few other low-robustness rated players) and, to a lesser degree, from their results against other players who have played the 3 "established" players.

There are data smoothing techniques that have proven effective for working with relatively small sample sizes, such as my league's results, but the possibility of an outlier increases exponentially as the data set grows smaller.

My experience has shown me that the biggest negative effect that outliers have is that they lead (and are already leading in this case) to a general distrust of the formula by pool players who aren't familiar with the law of big numbers; which is to say 99% of them.

That being said, I'm hugely optimistic about the use of Fargo ratings at the BCAPL Nationals and in pool at large. I just hope that enough of the players can overcome their initial wariness with a math-based rating system, and overlook the initial glitches in what will prove to be a very small percentage of the ratings, long enough to let Fargo become more established and therefore, more accurate.

Taek Chang
 
Last edited:
As I understand it (mind you, I'm fairly familiar with ELO ratings of this sort), EVERYONE ELSE'S ratings are going to be extrapolated from their results in their league matches against the 3 "established" players mentioned above (along with their results against me and the few other low-robustness rated players) and, to a lesser degree, from their results against other players who have played the 3 "established" players.

Do you use ratings in your league? If so, Fargo rating will be just as robust (for you) as your internal ratings (provided you give them all your data). And no one will be in a position to complain as they will be properly placed against all the players they know.

To the extent that you are a data island, or a data peninsula, it won't matter. Only when one of the islanders goes to the mainland might there be an issue. But if they are weighting based on robustness of opponents, this should resolve quickly.

Thank you kindly.
 
Do you use ratings in your league? If so, Fargo rating will be just as robust (for you) as your internal ratings (provided you give them all your data). And no one will be in a position to complain as they will be properly placed against all the players they know.

To the extent that you are a data island, or a data peninsula, it won't matter. Only when one of the islanders goes to the mainland might there be an issue. But if they are weighting based on robustness of opponents, this should resolve quickly.

Thank you kindly.

We don't use ratings of any kind in my league.
 
You can still input all of your league players' games into the Fargo rating system, whether or not your league uses Fargo ratings (or any other handicapping scheme).

Our league does not use LeagueSys, we do not use any handicapping in league matches, but we periodically email Mike Page a formatted Excel spreadsheet of all of our players' games.

I would contact Mike Page and ask him how to get your league more involved with the Fargo ratings. It is pretty easy, and in no time all of your players will have a healthy robustness.
 
You can still input all of your league players' games into the Fargo rating system, whether or not your league uses Fargo ratings (or any other handicapping scheme).

You all misunderstand. We report our league results to the BCAPL. I don't know if we use leaguesys or not, but I do know we report.

My concern isn't how robust our ratings are going to be against each other. My concern is that they're normalizing our ratings against everyone else with a Fargo rating based on VERY thin data.
 
Shaw just went 4-0 to win the 10ft big foot challenge.

Were those matches calculated or maybe not updated yet?

#18 Shaw 792

Although Morra and Skyler had a lower ranking.

The 12 matches from the first two rounds are in. Last three matches are not in yet.
 
You all misunderstand. We report our league results to the BCAPL. I don't know if we use leaguesys or not, but I do know we report.[...]

My concern isn't how robust our ratings are going to be against each other.

I think it should be. The other will take care of itself.

My concern is that they're normalizing our ratings against everyone else with a Fargo rating based on VERY thin data.

This will take care of itself with some time. Your 15 games are from BCAPL nationals. I see you are from California. We right now have over 4100 players in CA with games in the system--410000 games from CA players alone. That's an average of 100 games per player. The issue isn't whether there are some weakly linked islands. I'm sure there are. The issue is whether when a bridge IS built to the island, the island has a good system of roads to make good use of that bridge.
 
I was supposedly at 632 but its showing 629. The only thing I played since I was 632 was a challenge match where I beat a guy 13-6 but my rating has not increased a few points but dropped off.

Lenny your 13-6 win against gibbs is not in yer; last list matches are 13-10 and 13-11 agains stuckart and barber in December
 
Mike,

Let me begin by reiterating that I'm a huge proponent of the eventual use of Fargo ratings.

This will take care of itself with some time. Your 15 games are from BCAPL nationals. I see you are from California. We right now have over 4100 players in CA with games in the system--410000 games from CA players alone. That's an average of 100 games per player. The issue isn't whether there are some weakly linked islands. I'm sure there are. The issue is whether when a bridge IS built to the island, the island has a good system of roads to make good use of that bridge.

I would venture to guess that the sum total of all "rated" games by players in my league is less than 200. Those 200 games were played by maybe 6 players. There are about 60 players in my league, which means you're going to extrapolate the rest of the ratings for players in my league from the results set of 10% of it's players.

As I stated before, I know there are mathematical techniques that can help smooth out analysis for small sample sizes. I think it would have served everyone better to have waited a year to gather more data and run some regression analysis on the accuracy of the ratings for weakly linked islands such as my league.

More data would have been better, this is an incontrovertible fact.

It's not the rating that I have an issue with; it's the manner in which the use of the rating is being implemented.

Taek Chang
 
FargoRate: I was wondering if you guys going to add a new feature like a tournament manager so we can run tournaments from your site with a direct link to the fargo ratings.
 
[...]

More data would have been better, this is an incontrovertible fact.

[...]

If anything should go on our tombstones, it is that more data is better, or maybe more data are better ;-)

That is the reason we waited so long before going public with this effort. We have been quietly, behind the scenes, building infrastructure and collecting data for many years. There are many thousands of person-hours in data collection, and all the while we said nothing. It was very tempting to do this two years ago before we were so far along. And we resisted that.

If I can use a railroading analogy, we wanted to quietly build a transcontinental railway, and a couple major north-south routes--maybe 10,000 miles of tracks, all done quietly, before we even told people what a TRAIN is. Sure, the farmer in Nebraska might not yet be able to sell his grain to Asia. But all those other shorter railroad lines are coming.

That's why we waited so long. We wanted to be sure we are a big value added. For BCAPL nationals this year we feel confident we can guarantee the divisions will be FAR narrower in skill than ever before. There will still be exceptions (and I'm sure we will spend a lot of time talking about them), but they will be far fewer than ever before. And by the time we are done talking about the, we will be that much better, because as you say, more data is better.
 
It's not the rating that I have an issue with; it's the manner in which the use of the rating is being implemented.

Perhaps you can help us understand your concerns by giving an example of some undesirable thing which might happen given the ratings, that wouldn't happen in a non-rating world.

Thank you kindly.
 
Back
Top