Fast cloth question
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Biloxi Boy
Man With A Golden Arm
How much experience do you have on slow tables? Playing in high humidity? I am not aware of any game or situation in which slow cloth would be favored. It simply takes so much energy to move a ball that the ability to address other aspects is severely hindered -- the necessity of overpowering the cue inhibits the ability to make finer touches.
phreaticus
Well-known member
Ok, understood & agreed. But to OP’s question, why is it often stated that 760 (supposedly the faster cloth) is more suited to 14.1 vs rotation? I’ve also been curious about this same thing. I’m a novice at 14.1 and not sure If I’ve ever played on 760 or not, so like the OP - just wondering. Thx
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
How do you define slow? It's typically much easier to keep the cue ball from running around the table with slow cloth. In rotation games where you may need to go from one end of the table to the other and stay down there, slow cloth makes that easier. I can be very difficult to hold the cue ball on fast cloth on longer shots. If the cloth is too slow, following a shot out of the corner and back down the table is difficult as are long draw shots. In a game like one pocket, you may need to bank off the far end of the table but want to hit the cue ball softly. There's a range of preferable speeds, varying with your skill level and style, and the game you are playing is also a factor.
I have a 760 it's faster than any of the others I've played on. It's faster than The 860.
Biloxi Boy
Man With A Golden Arm
Variety is the name of the game. So from shot to shot in any game we might want to choose a different cloth. But since we can't choose, we must adjust. We have all observed how newly covered tables will initially play incredibly fast only to slow down as they wear in. Many times, tournaments begin at one speed and end at another as a result of heavy traffic on new cloth. A player's ability to adjust comes into play here as it does everywhere else in this game.
Is there such a thing as cloth that is too fast?
Is there such a thing as cloth that is too fast?
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
Most definitely. Maybe the humidity in Biloxi slows things down but I've played tables where the balls keep rolling, and rolling, and rolling. If the table rolls off, it's like this:
Biloxi Boy
Man With A Golden Arm
I have played for so long in deep humidity, usually accompanied by poor maintenance, it is nearly impossible for me to conceive of cloth which is too fast. Please, Mr. Fox, don't throw me in that briar patch . . .
In normal(relatively dry) conditions 760 is too fast for 9ball/10ball. 860 was invented because of this. When 760 first came out i don't know anyone that played much 9b that liked it. Fine for 14.1. IMO 860HR is the best Simonis cloth, speed is a lil faster than 860 but not as slick/quik as 760. Now in really humid environs 760 is a good choice because it plays slower in sticky air.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
At some point, it becomes easy to overrun position.
"Small table games" such as 1P, 14:1 benefit from super fast cloth. Tight position in a relatively small area of the table for the majority of shots. The games which favor a break that leave balls in the rack area also benefit from fast cloth. The faster the cloth, the easier it is to nudge balls out of the rack area. Little tight finesse shots, spin shots rolling off the edge of a ball for hold up etc.
When you're playing more full table games with a lot of CB movement, a touch slower cloth is better. Not super slow, still quick cloth, but it's frustrating as hell to play perfect 2 or 3 rail shape and overrun it by half a diamond.
When you play a rotation game where you let the cue ball run some distance, it's easier to judge speed on slightly slower cloth (again something like normal 860) and it's not such a pitty pat game. Fast cloth results in a lot of slow rolled shots and it can really change the dynamic of a game.
I have 860HR and it seems like a good sweet spot for most games. I play 8, 9, 10, 1P, Equal Offense (like solo 14:1) and it does really good on all of those games. I'd imagine it would be great for Banks too, but I don't really play that.
I like the effortless speed of billiard cloth. You can play naturals that don't even work on pool cloth. Big fatal exception but, the table has to be dead level. Even the slightest lean can screw you up totally.
Entirely too fast for playing pool.
PracticeChampion
Well-known member
Fast clothe I think is preferred cause it's easier. Every shot I shoot nowadays requires nothing above a medium speed stroke, usually a slow stroke which makes me more accurate. Old slow clothe days most shots took a medium and sometimes break speed to get where you needed to be. I'm definitely less accurate pounding a ball
Even the slowest worsted cloth is fast compared to the old woolens.
I think it makes everything tougher, easier to over roll a shot or under hit. I like 760 for one pocket! It has to be installed correctly, of course.
TFT
TFT
All games of pool are devided by two factors, cue ball speed vs object ball speed.
In pattern playing games such as 14.1, 8B, banks, the speed of the object balls is more noticeable than the cue ball because you're playing the object ball to the pockets, while holding the cue ball to short patterns, less cue ball movements. Faster cloth is a better fit.
Then, in 9B, 10B, 1P the speed of the table is seen more in the cue ball because after pocketing a ball, the cue ball may have to travel 1, 2, 3, or even 4 or more rails to get in position for the next shot, so playing these games, you don't want to play with a run away cue ball. Slower cloth is a better fit.
In pattern playing games such as 14.1, 8B, banks, the speed of the object balls is more noticeable than the cue ball because you're playing the object ball to the pockets, while holding the cue ball to short patterns, less cue ball movements. Faster cloth is a better fit.
Then, in 9B, 10B, 1P the speed of the table is seen more in the cue ball because after pocketing a ball, the cue ball may have to travel 1, 2, 3, or even 4 or more rails to get in position for the next shot, so playing these games, you don't want to play with a run away cue ball. Slower cloth is a better fit.
When old time pool players are talking about “slow” cloth we aren’t talking about 860 vs 760.
Unless I missed it, and that’s possible. “Slow” cloth is Stevens, Mali etc. the old fuzzy cloth that would get pills under the cushions when it was new, fuzz balls. That was “slow” cloth.
On slow cloth there are many shots where you just can’t move the cue ball like you can on any simonis cloth. The slicker the cloth the easier it is to move the CB. You can create angles that don’t exist on slow cloth or roll long enough to “get there” which is impossible on “slow” cloth.
So what’s that all mean? With more angles and length available it makes pitting the CB in places you just can’t (or need one hell of a stroke-think Earl) get to under normal circumstances. So with the ease of getting there “fast” tables play easier.
Take a player who’s played 4 years on simonis only and put him on a “slow” table and you’ll see someone struggle and if it’s wet they will play at least 2 gears down from their normal speed at best. Maybe worse.
That’s the difference between fast and slow cloth. I haven’t seen slow cloth in years. It’s all fast these days
Fatboy
You
I just installed 4 7ft Diamond's in the Ranch Tavern in Yakima, WA.
When all the league players that showed up to play on the tables for league that night saw there wasn't any Simonis cloth on the tables, without hitting a ball on the tables yet, several of them come up to me and asked me why I didn't install Simonis cloth on the tables, because no one wants to play on slow cloth. I just laughed and told everyone, you will all have to learn to shoot pool all over again
After all 4 were set up and ready to play, everyone jumped on the tables, I just sat back and watched!!
I heard "what the hell' and "holly shit, did you see that" and 'wow, did you see that draw back"
When I left, no one was complaining about the "SLOW" cloth anymore, and no one was calling it 'FAST" either, but everyone was asking what was the new cloth if not Simonis? I just told everyone it's a new Simonis cloth product
Nick Lopez, the Yakima table mechanic that helped me install the Diamonds, also helped me install the 4 Diamonds in the Dutch Bar & Grill in Yakima as well, asked me if I could get him the same Strachan Superweave but in Tour Blue instead of Green, because he wanted to put the same cloth on those tables as well, because even he had never seen a cloth play or react like this cloth was playing.
So, the morel of this story is, there's a lot of brain washing going on when it comes to installing cloth, that's called good MARKETING!!!
You're right about the slower cloth, but there was lot of manufacturers producing the woven woolen cloth in those days, but Stevens 22oz Superweave and Brunco1 were not in that category of slow, thick, shedding cloths.
I just installed 4 7ft Diamond's in the Ranch Tavern in Yakima, WA.
When all the league players that showed up to play on the tables for league that night saw there wasn't any Simonis cloth on the tables, without hitting a ball on the tables yet, several of them come up to me and asked me why I didn't install Simonis cloth on the tables, because no one wants to play on slow cloth. I just laughed and told everyone, you will all have to learn to shoot pool all over again
After all 4 were set up and ready to play, everyone jumped on the tables, I just sat back and watched!!
I heard "what the hell' and "holly shit, did you see that" and 'wow, did you see that draw back"
When I left, no one was complaining about the "SLOW" cloth anymore, and no one was calling it 'FAST" either, but everyone was asking what was the new cloth if not Simonis? I just told everyone it's a new Simonis cloth product
Nick Lopez, the Yakima table mechanic that helped me install the Diamonds, also helped me install the 4 Diamonds in the Dutch Bar & Grill in Yakima as well, asked me if I could get him the same Strachan Superweave but in Tour Blue instead of Green, because he wanted to put the same cloth on those tables as well, because even he had never seen a cloth play or react like this cloth was playing.
So, the morel of this story is, there's a lot of brain washing going on when it comes to installing cloth, that's called good MARKETING!!!
If its so good why is no one except you using it? Not trying to be cute just asking a legit question. Its not even on Strachan's site. Did they re-name it?You
You're right about the slower cloth, but there was lot of manufacturers producing the woven woolen cloth in those days, but Stevens 22oz Superweave and Brunco1 were not in that category of slow, thick, shedding cloths.
I just installed 4 7ft Diamond's in the Ranch Tavern in Yakima, WA.
When all the league players that showed up to play on the tables for league that night saw there wasn't any Simonis cloth on the tables, without hitting a ball on the tables yet, several of them come up to me and asked me why I didn't install Simonis cloth on the tables, because no one wants to play on slow cloth. I just laughed and told everyone, you will all have to learn to shoot pool all over again
After all 4 were set up and ready to play, everyone jumped on the tables, I just sat back and watched!!
I heard "what the hell' and "holly shit, did you see that" and 'wow, did you see that draw back"
When I left, no one was complaining about the "SLOW" cloth anymore, and no one was calling it 'FAST" either, but everyone was asking what was the new cloth if not Simonis? I just told everyone it's a new Simonis cloth product
Nick Lopez, the Yakima table mechanic that helped me install the Diamonds, also helped me install the 4 Diamonds in the Dutch Bar & Grill in Yakima as well, asked me if I could get him the same Strachan Superweave but in Tour Blue instead of Green, because he wanted to put the same cloth on those tables as well, because even he had never seen a cloth play or react like this cloth was playing.
So, the morel of this story is, there's a lot of brain washing going on when it comes to installing cloth, that's called good MARKETING!!!
It's so new, almost no one knows about it. I know about it because I've been the biggest push to have it developed with Simonis, through the Strachan Snooker cloth mill, as they make the woven woolen cloth, whereas Simonis only produces the worsted woolen cloths.
I've been working with the development of this cloth for about 4 years now. And now, starting about 5 months ago I've been installing the final product on Diamond tables left and right. As soon as I get my new shipment of the Tour Blue, I already have over 100 Diamond tables waiting on it, in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, and Montana.