Fear of Feel

League Play is great.

ENGLISH! said:
Hi Robin,

I know one of your focuses is to try to grow the game so to speak.

It what area do you feel the game needs growth? I'm asking because I am starting to be of the opinion that league play has grown to a point where it may actually to have started to hurt The Game.

Thanks & Best 2 You & All,
Rick
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Rick,
League play is great it provides us a way to recruit people into the game of pool and is probably the only way we consistently get new people in.

Thats one of my areas of concern and I am working on a way to bridge the gap between the room owner and the general public that makes people aware that pool exists.

If the room owners cannot realize a profit from the influx of pool customers, pool itself will continue to degrade and none of us here are for that at least.
 
336Robin said:
Rick,
League play is great it provides us a way to recruit people into the game of pool and is probably the only way we consistently get new people in.

Thats one of my areas of concern and I am working on a way to bridge the gap between the room owner and the general public that makes people aware that pool exists.

If the room owners cannot realize a profit from the influx of pool customers, pool itself will continue to degrade and none of us here are for that at least.
Click to expand...

Robin,

That's sort of how I am starting to see league play hurting room owners. Most league play is on coin tables in bars. The player's are rarely going to go to a room to play on 9 or even 8' tables. They're going to drop $.50 or $.75 in a coin table at a bar like the one that they will be playing on later in the week or next week.

Back when I was playing 4 to 5 nights a week in leagues some of the conditions were horrendous. One of the main reasons that I got back into playing in an individual house league is that I knew I would be playing on good 9' tables every week. As rooms close, where will the likes of me/us have to go to play. To me the small coin table game is a totally different game. I can certainly play it but it is not my preference & I would probably not ever do it again league wise given my age & past experience.

That said, how then does the older player interact with the younger generation. When I was playing all of those leagues there was interaction by me with both older & younger individuals. I learned a couple of things & I taught a few things.

I guess my point is what game will exist? England seems to honor their game of snooker more than we honor ours.

I know the game is in dire straights regarding money but I really hate the game getting 'prostituted' in order to try to 'save' it.

Sorry for the rant, especially as most of it has nothing to really do with you & what you're doing & at least you are concerned & trying to do something.

Kudos to you for that,
Rick
 
Sorry to butt in and I know this thread is about feel. So I will start this post off by saying I FEEL leagues in America have it all wrong in terms of growing home grown world beating talent. Pool leagues over here aren't handicapped. Meaning the better players will win and the weaker players will lose. Teams that are the best are because they have the best players on their team. Not having the best variety of players to reach their handicap. Snooker is handicapped slightly. They work on a points score system. So if a person is -40 and they're playing a +20 player the +20 player starts with a score of 60 points (the difference between ratings). This also has its down sides. I remember playing against a guy who was +10 and I was -60 at the time so he got a 70 head start. I made a break of 95 and still lost. He could play but was sandbagging and did just enough to win the match. I feel pool league should be made of the best players with no handicapping or a slightly different handicap. Something like a 7 vs a 5, the difference is 2. When the difference is 2 the lesser player gets all the breaks. When the difference is 3 the lesser player gets all the breaks and a chance to spot on ball after the break on the foot spot. Something along those lines that makes it pointless to sandbag and doesn't make players feel like there isn't any point in trying to improve because there team needs a 3 rated player.

Anyhow...just my thoughts :-)
 
Pidge said:
Sorry to butt in and I know this thread is about feel. So I will start this post off by saying I FEEL leagues in America have it all wrong in terms of growing home grown world beating talent. Pool leagues over here aren't handicapped. Meaning the better players will win and the weaker players will lose. Teams that are the best are because they have the best players on their team. Not having the best variety of players to reach their handicap. Snooker is handicapped slightly. They work on a points score system. So if a person is -40 and they're playing a +20 player the +20 player starts with a score of 60 points (the difference between ratings). This also has its down sides. I remember playing against a guy who was +10 and I was -60 at the time so he got a 70 head start. I made a break of 95 and still lost. He could play but was sandbagging and did just enough to win the match. I feel pool league should be made of the best players with no handicapping or a slightly different handicap. Something like a 7 vs a 5, the difference is 2. When the difference is 2 the lesser player gets all the breaks. When the difference is 3 the lesser player gets all the breaks and a chance to spot on ball after the break on the foot spot. Something along those lines that makes it pointless to sandbag and doesn't make players feel like there isn't any point in trying to improve because there team needs a 3 rated player.

Anyhow...just my thoughts :-)
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Hi Pidge,

I agree for the most part & that too is another reason I left the leagues back in the day. They are designed to reward lesser players & penalize better players & I don't mean for a match but in general. Also, they encourage sandbagging & qualifying ringers for playoffs.

There is no easy answer but I'd rather see even up play at different league levels. That way one is truly encouraged to get good enough to move up & survive in a higher level league.

But...as you said, we digress.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
Feel in Pool is the handicap

Rick and Pidge,

I think the idea is when you handicap your shooting at averages and since feel is something without a basis for controlling comes and goes and makes it hard to actually attain and keep.

I tried to keep this in mind and make it a focus for what I did.

To answer your comment Rick. Nothing in pool works out unless it increases the bottom line for someone. The end result of my ideas will have to do that or they wont work either but I like my chances and only time will bear that out. Its a journey for me and something I decided to embrace at what my mission was. If the answer is no then so be it I tried. I have to believe if we all used our talents at doing what we can some good has to come from it.
 
Wow....did anyone else sense a disturbance in The Force just now?

Crossing anti-league thoughts into an aiming thread....I fear this will open a vortex into a black hole heretofore unseen in the history of AZB

:D
 
justadub said:
Wow....did anyone else sense a disturbance in The Force just now?

Crossing anti-league thoughts into an aiming thread....I fear this will open a vortex into a black hole heretofore unseen in the history of AZB

:D
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Hi Bruce,

My comments were not anti-league. If anything they were anti-structure.

If a group of friends get together to form a team. But then all or some members can not get too good or someone has to go, there might be an incentive there to dump.

Everyone is not looking for the same thing in leagues. Hence there are becoming more & more different types.

Way back when, I said that if they took the 'best' rules from APA & BCA & combined them they would have a good league. But good for who? I was then referring to it being better for the better players. They could have also taken different rules from each & made a 'better' league for the weaker players & that is basically what they did.

The Game basically had & has the better players but the weaker players were the ones in jeopardy of being lost. Hence the question of what can we do to keep them AND bring in more that are new to the game like them & keep them.

Leagues became 'big' business.

I don't know what Robin has in mind to help room owners but how about a nationwide league of head to head team play with no handicap only on 9 foot tables?

I hope you see my points & understand that I am not anti-league but structure & rules.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS Sorry PJ for the further derail.
 
Ideas

All of my ideas about what I want to do with my book and my ideas to help room owners are posted on my website at:

aimisthegameinpool.com
 
One thing this long rambling conversation about aiming by feel has clearly demonstrated: there's no clear consensus on what aiming by feel is.

My definition is simple: If your final aim line isn't the alignment of an easily identifiable point on the CB with an easily identifiable point on the OB, like the sights on a rifle (or a fractional alignment), then you're aiming by feel.

Using easily identifiable alignments (like fractions) in the process can make this easier (by narrowing the choices), but it doesn't change it. Feel is how the final aim line is found, ultimately learned by trial and error.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
One thing this long rambling conversation about aiming by feel has clearly demonstrated: there's no clear consensus on what aiming by feel is.

My definition is simple: If your final aim line isn't the alignment of an easily identifiable point on the CB with an easily identifiable point on the OB, like the sights on a rifle (or a fractional alignment), then you're aiming by feel.

Using easily identifiable alignments (like fractions) in the process can make this easier (by narrowing the choices), but it doesn't change it. Feel is how the final aim line is found, ultimately learned by trial and error.

pj
chgo
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What happens if your aim line is just directly behind the cueball?
 
If you have to use your imagination and visualise things its feel, eg ghost ball. If you use specific references then it isn't, eg shadows and lights. Simple :-)
 
Pidge said:
If you have to use your imagination and visualise things its feel, eg ghost ball. If you use specific references then it isn't, eg shadows and lights. Simple :-)
Click to expand...

Hi Pidge,

I don't think it's as simply as that. The reason I say such is that there almost has to be a transition at least once the center CB line gets outside of the edges of the OB.

There are thick shots where the alignment can be CCB to the shadow but when the angle gets to a certain point that is no longer possible & another part of the CB must be aligned to the shadow even before the CCB line gets to the edge of the OB.

Where that transition needs to be made is done by 'feel'. 'Am I at the limit?' Will this center CB line there still pocket the ball or should I make the transition. To me, those are questions that are answered by feel or our subconscious.

What do you think?

One is using objectives but then there is that 'decision' that needs to be made...by feel.

I guess that would still fit your definition of 'not feel'. I guess one would just be making a feel related 'decision' as to what objectives to use when.

Sorry for sort of thinking out loud.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
leagues, they are designed to keep players from wanting to improve.

Pidge said:
If you have to use your imagination and visualise things its feel, eg ghost ball. If you use specific references then it isn't, eg shadows and lights. Simple :-)
Click to expand...

I use these visual things above the ball and on my way down on the shot....then make a mental "modality" shift that increases my feel, and decreases my visual sense.

You made some great points about leagues, they are designed to keep players from wanting to improve - and sandbagging is as common as Magic chalk these days. ;)
visual-modality.jpeg
 
Patrick Johnson said:
One thing this long rambling conversation about aiming by feel has clearly demonstrated: there's no clear consensus on what aiming by feel is.

My definition is simple: If your final aim line isn't the alignment of an easily identifiable point on the CB with an easily identifiable point on the OB, like the sights on a rifle (or a fractional alignment), then you're aiming by feel.

Using easily identifiable alignments (like fractions) in the process can make this easier (by narrowing the choices), but it doesn't change it. Feel is how the final aim line is found, ultimately learned by trial and error.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

It took me a minute of reading this over a couple of times and I understand what you are saying but even if you were aiming cp to cp you still have to deliver to that place and the parallax on the shot makes you take pause at what you are doing and for me aiming at a place on the ball you deem as right still has feel involved in it.

However when you get down in position in line to where you think you need to be lined up so many times you find you feel too thick or too thin and you adjust...that is certainly feel. Its especially feel when you make the decision and you put it in the pocket regardless of what you think you knew.

Feel can be directed to an area of assignment but you cant feel it until you are down and ready to play the shot.

Thats my definition long though it may be.
 
336Robin said:
...even if you were aiming cp to cp you still have to deliver to that place and the parallax on the shot makes you take pause at what you are doing and for me aiming at a place on the ball you deem as right still has feel involved in it.
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I agree. There's even "feel" involved in visualizing and aligning ball fractions, and even in choosing which ball fractions to align. My definition focuses on the one thing all aiming methods have to do - choose the final aim line.

pj
chgo
 
Pidge said:
If you have to use your imagination and visualise things its feel, eg ghost ball. If you use specific references then it isn't, eg shadows and lights. Simple :-)
Click to expand...
You have to use your imagination and visualize how shadows and lights show you the aim line, or how any other reference does.

Any reference is only a reference, not a final aim line (except by coincidence). It's what you do with it (by feel) that determines whether you make or miss the shot.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You have to use your imagination and visualize how shadows and lights show you the aim line, or how any other reference does.

Any reference is only a reference, not a final aim line (except by coincidence). It's what you do with it (by feel) that determines whether you make or miss the shot.

pj
chgo
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Flat out incorrect!

You can not lump real CTE in with your statements. You do not know CTE and you can not execute shots with real CTE.

SO, YOU DO NOT SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE WHICH IS WHERE TRUE KNOWLEDGE IS FOUND CINCERNING REAL CTE.....you speak from a weak position, behind the keyboard.

Stan Shuffett
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You have to use your imagination and visualize how shadows and lights show you the aim line, or how any other reference does.

Any reference is only a reference, not a final aim line (except by coincidence). It's what you do with it (by feel) that determines whether you make or miss the shot.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I would like to focus on that last line in relation to CTE. I don't believe CTE relies on feel, but I am not going to attempt to sway your belief in this post. Instead, I'm going to briefly entertain the notion that it does.

Now would you or would you not agree that there are different "levels" of feel?

If you agree, then would you also agree that there is a possibility (no matter how slight) that CTE requires less feel than other methods?
 
stan shuffett said:
Flat out incorrect!

You can not lump real CTE in with your statements. You do not know CTE and you can not execute shots with real CTE.

SO, YOU DO NOT SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE WHICH IS WHERE TRUE KNOWLEDGE IS FOUND CINCERNING REAL CTE.....you speak from a weak position, behind the keyboard.

Stan Shuffett
Click to expand...
I didn't mention CTE in my definition of feel, Stan. Does something about it sound like CTE to you?

pj
chgo
 
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