ferrules

[carguy]

I love talking cues with just about anybody, especially when the subject of conversation is based on the finer aspects of building. I enjoy contemplating others' points of view, whether I agree with them or not, and I do not mind when somebody disagrees with me. We all have different experiences and therefore we often form opposing viewpoints. Again, not a problem. What I do mind is when somebody makes blatant attempts at being snide and/or belittling for no apparent reason. It's out of line & I have no problem being abrasive with a guy like that.

I love talking shop too, especially about all the fine details. But ongoing tit-for-tat battles get old fast. Not sweating the small stuff is so much more comfortable for me.

I mean, it eventually gets like the Hatfields and the McCoys. (oops, there I go rolling my eyes again)

Myself, I have sometimes gone for hours at a time without being either sarcastic or abrasive.
Of course, no one was around.

Robin Snyder

 

[carguy]

The links you posted are a great reference, and offer indispensable information. That said, it's only raw info & doesn't cover install techniques, which are essentially what dictate the overall affect the ferrule has on hit. Case in point, a normal 5/16-18 x 1" capped ferrule made of melamine will hit different than the same thing made from PVC. However, make the PVC 1.25" long capped, and the melamine 1/2" long uncapped, and the hit is different by even more margin. My objective was to provoke thought that went deeper than material alone, which seems to be where lots of folks get caught up & can't seem to get past.

Absolutely correct. It's a package.

Robin Snyder

 

[carguy]

Ferrules are the sole reason I even build cues. I used the shop lathe to replace a ferrule on my Meucci, and noticed a change in feel & performance. It made me so curious that I bought a lathe and began making cues. True story. I can't even imagine building cues without that curiosity & drive to learn. What's the point in doing it if there's no desire to advance?

I love this.
Curiosity < strong medicine

Robin Snyder

 

[JoeyInCali]

There's a lesson to this one .
An old school 1" ferrule even.

 

[carguy]

There's a lesson to this one .
An old school 1" ferrule even.

Joey- I guess we've all seen plenty if those. My theory is that the plastic ferrules shrinks. The tip acts as a cap so the ferrule pull itself forward as it gets shorter. I've never seen this on a threaded ferrule but I'll guess they were better material. I guess it could be the thread.

I just went and looked at some ferrules I put on years ago. They were all one type or another of thermoset material: very dimensionally stable. None had gaps, not that I knew what the "good" material was back then, but none were threaded. I had probably not even heard of that yet.
But I suspect it's about the nature of material, not that it's threaded that prevents the gap.

Robin Snyder

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey- I guess we've all seen plenty if those. My theory is that the plastic ferrules shrinks. The tip acts as a cap so the ferrule pull itself forward as it gets shorter. I've never seen this on a threaded ferrule but I'll guess they were better material. I guess it could be the thread.

I just went and looked at some ferrules I put on years ago. They were all one type or another of thermoset material: very dimensionally stable. None had gaps, not that I knew what the "good" material was back then, but none were threaded. I had probably not even heard of that yet.
But I suspect it's about the nature of material, not that it's threaded that prevents the gap.

Robin Snyder

This one is has a non-porous ferrule.
Seen them on ivory ferrules too.

I have a theory and will keep it a secret to keep repair people in business.

 

[carguy]

This one is has a non-porous ferrule.
Seen them on ivory ferrules too.

I have a theory and will keep it a secret to keep repair people in business.

So now I went and looked at the first 2 ivory ferrules I ever did. I still have 'em. I'm amazed they are so good! (and I really hate ivory ferrules)
No threads and no gaps. I'm sure I used the best epoxy the hardware store had to offer. Might well have been 5 minute stuff. Can't remember.
I tried everything back then just to compare things and see what seemed to work.

Come on Joey, your secret is safe with me!

Robin Snyder

 

[shankster8]

A lot fail due to wood and glue shinking or moving imo.
PS
I've never been to NJ

If shrinkage is the problem, it seems it wouldn't matter if the ferule was threaded or not, it will be loose, NO?

 

[shankster8]

I love talking cues with just about anybody, especially when the subject of conversation is based on the finer aspects of building. I enjoy contemplating others' points of view, whether I agree with them or not, and I do not mind when somebody disagrees with me. We all have different experiences and therefore we often form opposing viewpoints. Again, not a problem. What I do mind is when somebody makes blatant attempts at being snide and/or belittling for no apparent reason. It's out of line & I have no problem being abrasive with a guy like that.

I'm nobody, but I gotta say: Look in the mirror, bro!

 

[shankster8]

Mechanical+glue bond has been proven to be stronger than just glue bond.

If the "mechanical" (wood threads) have less strength than the glue, what advantage have they? The wood would shear before the glue. It seems that an unthreaded ferrule, would have a straight glue joint of say 1/2" inch - pretty strong. If you threaded, you get an interrupted glue joint which seems would shear easier.

 

[JoeyInCali]

If the "mechanical" (wood threads) have less strength than the glue, what advantage have they? The wood would shear before the glue. It seems that an unthreaded ferrule, would have a straight glue joint of say 1/2" inch - pretty strong. If you threaded, you get an interrupted glue joint which seems would shear easier.

It doesn't .
If that were true, we'd have un-threaded screws going down the forearm.
Un-threaded collars, A-joint and butt plate .

 

[Mcues]

There's so many variables that only experience can guide you towards the prefer method for your particular build. Keeping your mouth shut and your ears open will take you the rest of the way. The more you listen to others opinions and experiences the quicker you progress.

I worry anytime I think I've found the Holy Grail, specially when you are doing Custom cue work, which means you are trying to give the end user what he or she wants. Unless of course you are building what you want or have determined to be best, and let the world take it or leave it, which is ok; just leave the megalomania crap out of it. Standard practices don't become standard because someone gets up one morning and decides it. Mostly trial and error with room for improvement.

Mario

 

[carguy]

There's so many variables that only experience can guide you towards the prefer method for your particular build. Keeping your mouth shut and your ears open will take you the rest of the way. The more you listen to others opinions and experiences the quicker you progress.

I worry anytime I think I've found the Holy Grail, specially when you are doing Custom cue work, which means you are trying to give the end user what he or she wants. Unless of course you are building what you want or have determined to be best, and let the world take it or leave it, which is ok; just leave the megalomania crap out of it. Standard practices don't become standard because someone gets up one morning and decides it. Mostly trial and error with room for improvement.

Mario

Very well stated. Beware the Holey Grail

Robin Snyder

 

[cueman]

Capped has proven to hold up better than non capped ferrules.
Threaded has proven to hold the ferrule on better.
Yes non capped and non threaded ferrules have held up, but many more made that way have failed.
The only advantages I can see for non capped and non threaded would be they are easier to install and play different. I did not say play better as that would be a matter of opinion. But they do play different.

 

[KJ Cues]

It doesn't .
If that were true, we'd have un-threaded screws going down the forearm.
Un-threaded collars, A-joint and butt plate .

Not to burst anyone's bubble but there are many cues built as you've just described.
I'm not a fan of an unthreaded pin due to the fact that the stainless doesn't have
enough surface porosity to provide adequate adhesion. Carefully crafted grooves would work.

As to the unthreaded tenon (here we go again), they don't need threads.
Epoxy seeps/wicks into the wood via the pores and suface irregularities
It's not letting go. Break a ferrule, the epoxy stays on the tenon or the tenon
itself breaks. It's not because the tenon didn't have threads.
Threading a tenon creates a minor diameter which is now the weakest part of the tenon.
To the non-believer, all one needs do is look at a bolt; where is it's weak point ?
Certainly not the blank shank just below the head but rather the minor dia. in the threaded section.
Here's my tip of the day. A thru-ferrule needs it's internal diameter 'addressed'.
In raw form it doesn't usually have adequate porosity.
Thread it and you've now made the ferrule weaker as well.
I sense smoke, I just don't see it. Lol

Oh, and before I forget (not likely) IMHO capped ferrules are a disaster.
Ivory needs a cap, nothing else does. A pad maybe but not a cap.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Not to burst anyone's bubble but there are many cues built as you've just described.
I'm not a fan of an unthreaded pin due to the fact that the stainless doesn't have
enough surface porosity to provide adequate adhesion. Carefully crafted grooves would work.

As to the unthreaded tenon (here we go again), they don't need threads.
Epoxy seeps/wicks into the wood via the pores and suface irregularities
It's not letting go. Break a ferrule, the epoxy stays on the tenon or the tenon
itself breaks. It's not because the tenon didn't have threads.
Threading a tenon creates a minor diameter which is now the weakest part of the tenon.
To the non-believer, all one needs do is look at a bolt; where is it's weak point ?
Certainly not the blank shank just below the head but rather the minor dia. in the threaded section.
Here's my tip of the day. A thru-ferrule needs it's internal diameter 'addressed'.
In raw form it doesn't usually have adequate porosity.
Thread it and you've now made the ferrule weaker as well.
I sense smoke, I just don't see it. Lol

Oh, and before I forget (not likely) IMHO capped ferrules are a disaster.
Ivory needs a cap, nothing else does. A pad maybe but not a cap.

I've never seen threaded tenons break . A few Predator thin tenons though. Plenty of their ferrules slipping too .
5-minute epoxies really do not wick onto the wood. Too thick and too fast .
I've seen epoxies that were easily removed with a pick .

A shouldered threaded ferrule should last forever unless abused from the outside .

 

[jsaxman]

Great discussion guys!!!!
Kinda like politics......so many polarized in THEIR method of installing a ferrule,
they do not have the capacity to consider ANY other method.
MY way is the ONLY way!!!!


Sometimes we need to have an open mind.
Be be able to look at the issue from a different perspective.

Like now days the short 1/2" ferrule is very popular?
Why? less squirt?


Nobody has the HOLY GRAIL process of cue building.
quality seasoned wood
knowledge
experience of different methods
perfection (searing)
time
balance
quality connection of parts
ALL help in building a great playing cue!

Now days it is difficult to discuss ANY topic, without bashing each other?


WTF?
It gives us something to talk about?

People love to bash each other. human nature?
it"s entertaining !!!!!!


later
sax

 

[RADAR]

Guys why is it sw cues play so well to many, yet have long ferules as compared to many other makers who use short ferules? say sw deflection more due to this fact or not because in despite pro shaft tapper? How are they thru,capped,glued threaded? interesting?

 

[shankster8]

Not to burst anyone's bubble but there are many cues built as you've just described.
I'm not a fan of an unthreaded pin due to the fact that the stainless doesn't have
enough surface porosity to provide adequate adhesion. Carefully crafted grooves would work.

As to the unthreaded tenon (here we go again), they don't need threads.
Epoxy seeps/wicks into the wood via the pores and suface irregularities
It's not letting go. Break a ferrule, the epoxy stays on the tenon or the tenon
itself breaks. It's not because the tenon didn't have threads.
Threading a tenon creates a minor diameter which is now the weakest part of the tenon.
To the non-believer, all one needs do is look at a bolt; where is it's weak point ?
Certainly not the blank shank just below the head but rather the minor dia. in the threaded section.
Here's my tip of the day. A thru-ferrule needs it's internal diameter 'addressed'.
In raw form it doesn't usually have adequate porosity.
Thread it and you've now made the ferrule weaker as well.
I sense smoke, I just don't see it. Lol

Oh, and before I forget (not likely) IMHO capped ferrules are a disaster.
Ivory needs a cap, nothing else does. A pad maybe but not a cap.

KJ, how do you "address" the internal diameter of a ferrule?

 

[conetip]

Ferrules are a replaceable expendable item on the end of the cue shaft.
Different ferrules and install styles all effect play, but that play is not the same for all users of the same cue shaft and tip.
Neil