ferrules

[Jon]

That's right. Predators are designed in such a way that the tip of the shaft deflect off the cueball before the cueball squirts away from the tip.
I guess Thowas Wayne had an experiment yrs ago about coring the end of the shaft with some Alaskan wood. Of course, you can use Holly now if you want. They are very light too.
I've seen the inside of a 314 shaft. The foam is on the ferrule not totally inside the bored hole. The foam is just there to dampen the sound.
Juston claims he sent you some Mary Kay lipstick tubes for ferrule use.
I didn't know you were that cheap. I would have used Avon lipstick tubes.

No way man. I actually have 2 meucci ferrules from hightower, a guy wanted me to put a new one on his Moochi, but by the time i got them, he had already sent it off to Moochi... SOB... lol now i'm stuck with them. I've tried avon tubes, but they crack to easily, when i get another cue finished, i'm going to try out micarta and Grice, i like the "lively" hit/feel/playability of ivory, but it just hits so damn hard (even with the pad.) And yes, they deflect a lot, i like deflection, it's my friend, but sometimes a good friend wears out their welcome... . I'm going to try a different method of attaching the ferrule, and see how it goes (it's a secret, can't remember if i told joey or not lol... uh oh...)

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Joseph Cues]

. I'm going to try a different method of attaching the ferrule, and see how it goes (it's a secret, can't remember if i told joey or not lol... uh oh...)

Thanks,

Jon

Yeah, you told me.
You're gonna turn the tenon down to .260 then hammer in the threaded ferrule with filled up yellow glue .
I still don't like your advice of placing toilet paper at the bottom of the joint stud to get rid of the buzzing. I think you stole that idea from that cuemaker instructor in the mountains.
I'll stick to no tissue paper way.
Btw, Bill Hagan made low deflection cues and it had no bored holes or light ferrules. They had buckhorn ferrules. God bless Bill.

 

[Barney]

Yeah, you told me.
You're gonna turn the tenon down to .260 then hammer in the threaded ferrule with filled up yellow glue .
I still don't like your advice of placing toilet paper at the bottom of the joint stud to get rid of the buzzing. I think you stole that idea from that cuemaker instructor in the mountains.
I'll stick to no tissue paper way.
Btw, Bill Hagan made low deflection cues and it had no bored holes or light ferrules. They had buckhorn ferrules. God bless Bill.

I am not sure what you are saying, I pull my ferrule off, stick toilet paper under it, glue it back on, it hits softer and better. Why not do like Jewett says, just rip that sucker off and play with out it. Just glue the tip on the end of my stick.

 

[Colin Colenso]

A Wrong Assumption

From all I've read on squirt or defelection as it has been called, I believe an important, and erroneous assumption has been made.

That assumption is that the tip has 100% friction, or NO SLIDE on the cueball.

If in fact this were entirely true, the cue call would stick to the end of the tip after impact.

Some will suggest that it is effectively 100% friction, but I do not believe this opinion at this time as the eveidence is against such a theory.

I believe that squirt is in fact the result of some inefficiency in grip. It is evidence of a partially elastic collision occuring. This explains perfectly why cues of low end mass have a lesser degree of deflection.

When a ball hits another ball, friction is minimal so the resultant direction after impact is about 98% a result of the line through the centre of the balls and 2% in the direction of movement of the moving ball as a result of friction (grip).

I contend that almost the reverse is happening than when a tip hits the cueball. 98% grip, 2% elastic collision. This small loss of grip is usually not felt or heard as a miscue. A miscue is simply a lesser degree of friction. We can have slight miscues (maybe 95% friction) and big miscues with very little friction. We only notice a miscue when it makes enough noise or vibration for our senses to detect it.

Based on my theory, if we developed a tip, adhesive, cue ball system with greater grip we should see deflection almost disappear even on extreme side shots. It could revolutionize the artistic aspect of the game as the cue ball could be struck further from the centre than is now possible resulting in some freakish spin to speed ratios.

If we accept that deflection is actually a result of slight elastisticity of collision, this would explain other aspects that effect defelection. eg. Speed of shot.

Current theory suggests that hard hitting should result in the same deflection as soft hitting. Most experienced players do not find this in their experience. The counter argument is made that hard shots do not have time to masse (swerve) back on the line, but I do not believe that this is the cause of misunderstanding.

I propose that harder hitting and stiffer cues in fact change the effectiveness of cue tip friction on the cue ball. This is consistant with an understanding of the mechanisms of friction which is at best a poor science.

The physicists love to ignore friction where they can because it is so complex. It is hard to put into calculations.

I don't believe that all elastic forces can be eliminated, but with advances in ferrule, tip and adhesive (chalk) materials it could be significantly reduced. This means that there should also need to be consideration for low end-mass cues to further reduce deflection.

 

[Barney]

speak english

From all I've read on squirt or defelection as it has been called, I believe an important, and erroneous assumption has been made.

That assumption is that the tip has 100% friction, or NO SLIDE on the cueball.

If in fact this were entirely true, the cue call would stick to the end of the tip after impact.

Some will suggest that it is effectively 100% friction, but I do not believe this opinion at this time as the eveidence is against such a theory.

I believe that squirt is in fact the result of some inefficiency in grip. It is evidence of a partially elastic collision occuring. This explains perfectly why cues of low end mass have a lesser degree of deflection.

When a ball hits another ball, friction is minimal so the resultant direction after impact is about 98% a result of the line through the centre of the balls and 2% in the direction of movement of the moving ball as a result of friction (grip).

I contend that almost the reverse is happening than when a tip hits the cueball. 98% grip, 2% elastic collision. This small loss of grip is usually not felt or heard as a miscue. A miscue is simply a lesser degree of friction. We can have slight miscues (maybe 95% friction) and big miscues with very little friction. We only notice a miscue when it makes enough noise or vibration for our senses to detect it.

Based on my theory, if we developed a tip, adhesive, cue ball system with greater grip we should see deflection almost disappear even on extreme side shots. It could revolutionize the artistic aspect of the game as the cue ball could be struck further from the centre than is now possible resulting in some freakish spin to speed ratios.

If we accept that deflection is actually a result of slight elastisticity of collision, this would explain other aspects that effect defelection. eg. Speed of shot.

Current theory suggests that hard hitting should result in the same deflection as soft hitting. Most experienced players do not find this in their experience. The counter argument is made that hard shots do not have time to masse (swerve) back on the line, but I do not believe that this is the cause of misunderstanding.

I propose that harder hitting and stiffer cues in fact change the effectiveness of cue tip friction on the cue ball. This is consistant with an understanding of the mechanisms of friction which is at best a poor science.

The physicists love to ignore friction where they can because it is so complex. It is hard to put into calculations.

I don't believe that all elastic forces can be eliminated, but with advances in ferrule, tip and adhesive (chalk) materials it could be significantly reduced. This means that there should also need to be consideration for low end-mass cues to further reduce deflection.

Colin, I am a simple pool player, all this physics stuff is going right over my head dude. I have simple questions and nobody is bothering to answer them.

Is my Ivory ferrule the best to use or not, that was the board position before and why I put it on and paid a lot of money for it.
Do I tear off my ferrule, put toilet paper under it to soften the hit and glue it back on as told to do on this forum.
Do I tear off my ferrule completely and just glue on my tip on the end of my wood on my shaft. I am told I must use a backed tip, and they are only backed in the soft tips and I was told hard tips out perform them. Now going to a soft tip, do I not lose performance. This is all getting so confusing, somebody sort this out in simple words please for us.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, I am a simple pool player, all this physics stuff is going right over my head dude. I have simple questions and nobody is bothering to answer them.

Is my Ivory ferrule the best to use or not, that was the board position before and why I put it on and paid a lot of money for it.
Do I tear off my ferrule, put toilet paper under it to soften the hit and glue it back on as told to do on this forum.
Do I tear off my ferrule completely and just glue on my tip on the end of my wood on my shaft. I am told I must use a backed tip, and they are only backed in the soft tips and I was told hard tips out perform them. Now going to a soft tip, do I not lose performance. This is all getting so confusing, somebody sort this out in simple words please for us.

Hey Barney,
Some simplistic answers based on physics analysis:

Ivory has a density of around 3gms/cm3. It is denser (heavier or higher mass one might say) than plastic ferrules. Therefore it will deflect more if all other things stay the same.

Wood is less dense than plastic. About 0.6 versus 1.3-1.5 so the best solution is a thin walled plastic ferrule. Having no ferrule at all will lead to damage of the end of the shaft. The role of a ferrule is essentially to protect the end of the shaft. The less mass at the end of the cue the better as it means less deflection when playing with english. That assists learning to aim with English.

Players may accommodate to an Ivory ferrule but I can't see any advantage other than prettiness.

If I were you, I'd replace the ivory with a thin walled plastic ferrule. Problem is if it's too thin it may crack. Even the very cheap plastic ferrules should be better. Sorry I can't tell you what is the best plastic to use. Some polyethylenes may be ok, there is ABS, Polycarbonate, Nylon, POM and many others with various characteristics of density, strength, resilience, elasticity, hardness, ductility etc. It is confusing but one day I hope to do some research to determine the best material.

Also, if your ferrule is thinner it will help reduce deflection too. So I would recommend a 12 to 12.5mm standard plastic ferrule with walls not too thick. If it cracks, get it replaced...maybe a touch thicker the next time.

I would also suggest you also consider a firm tip, say a Triangle and try to shape it well and apple chalk carefully to the edges when playing with extreme english. This may improve the grip considerably and keep deflection (squirt) low.

This is all you need to reach the highest level if you have the concentration and game knowledge.

Proof of this is that most pro snooker players can out pot and position pro pool players using a snooker cue. They just don't know how to read the 9-ball game. Your plastic ferruled cue would be better than what they play 9-ball with.

Almost any cue, with a half decent tip can be adjusted to by an experienced skilled player. But why make it harder than it has to be.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[blud]

My OPINION, for what it's worth.

Ivory is best for me and many others. But, this is just an OPINION, period. It's whatever suits the player.

Kinda like the "two" known "ROBOT'S" out there. Either of them has a game, just name the place , but bring plenty of cash.

Findings,
to me mean nothing at all. The true, finds, comes from one playing. Damn sure not a robot, or some one running test on a machine, or doing the math. Feeling it, shooting it, doing it, is for sure.........

All of the test, books and researches, mean nothing.
Reason is, none of us "address" the ball the same and none have the same touch, feel and, read the feed back from the cue the same.

The weight, the balance point, the tip, shafts shape, the shafts size, the joint configeration, [ steel wood ivory plastic, ect]and joint size, wraps, woods being used in the cue, the rubber bumper, type of construction, pin type and size, your bridge, open or closed, how tight you hold the cue, what kind of stroke is being applied, and everthing that makes up a cue, has someting to do with defeliction. All of these thing apply.

The mass, deflection, test and so on, has got nothing to do with the players, other than possible cause a great deal of confussion, in there minds...

A cuemaker can claim, his cue has less defection, this might be, but give the same cue to another person, and guess what, it's more or even less.

The player, good, bad, average, and above average "WILL ADJUST" to whatever is on his cue, in time.

One guy likes ivory, the next guy does not, and so on. Come on guys, just go play and have a good time and leave all the confussion out of your minds.Bet you play better next time out.

Forget all the crap. All cues deflect, not all the same, but "ALL" do, for several reasons, not just ferrules.......
Bottom line, it's called "ADJUSTMENTS".......
blud

 

[Barney]

My OPINION, for what it's worth.

Ivory is best for me and many others. But, this is just an OPINION, period. It's whatever suits the player.

Kinda like the "two" known "ROBOT'S" out there. Either of them has a game, just name the place , but bring plenty of cash.

Findings,
to me mean nothing at all. The true, finds, comes from one playing. Damn sure not a robot, or some one running test on a machine, or doing the math. Feeling it, shooting it, doing it, is for sure.........

All of the test, books and researches, mean nothing.
Reason is, none of us "address" the ball the same and none have the same touch, feel and, read the feed back from the cue the same.

The weight, the balance point, the tip, shafts shape, the shafts size, the joint configeration, [ steel wood ivory plastic, ect]and joint size, wraps, woods being used in the cue, the rubber bumper, type of construction, pin type and size, your bridge, open or closed, how tight you hold the cue, what kind of stroke is being applied, and everthing that makes up a cue, has someting to do with defeliction. All of these thing apply.

The mass, deflection, test and so on, has got nothing to do with the players, other than possible cause a great deal of confussion, in there minds...

A cuemaker can claim, his cue has less defection, this might be, but give the same cue to another person, and guess what, it's more or even less.

The player, good, bad, average, and above average "WILL ADJUST" to whatever is on his cue, in time.

One guy likes ivory, the next guy does not, and so on. Come on guys, just go play and have a good time and leave all the confussion out of your minds.Bet you play better next time out.

Forget all the crap. All cues deflect, not all the same, but "ALL" do, for several reasons, not just ferrules.......
Bottom line, it's called "ADJUSTMENTS".......
blud

Sir, all of the major advancements in Tennis and Golf have not come from the players but from advances in the equipment. These advances came from testing laboratories. We have been making the same cue for the last 50 years, we have had no advances. You say ignore all of this, I would guess becuase its obvious you understand none of it, which is why you keep making the same cue we had 50 years ago. A new article just went up on www.billiards-pool.net, 17 pages which describes the physics of this, do you care to comment on this, or is this over your head and education? Maybe somebody else can in your place. Nobody is saying any thing here on this forum, does that mean every ones clue less? I want for and for ask for answers, I get told to ignore it all, it means nothing, that is just a bunch of bunk. That is about as lame as it comes.

 

[Troy]

It's the same article that is on the SF Billiard Academy site as referenced by Bob Jewett.

A new article just went up on www.billiards-pool.net, 17 pages which describes the physics of

 

[Barney]

It's the same article that is on the SF Billiard Academy site as referenced by Bob Jewett.

Yes thats true, but you need adobe reader to open it and not everyone does have it. On bpn they have the adobe reader as a free download, you just click a link and its there, very cool.
Then you just click the pdf and it opens.

Would every one who has torn off their ferrule and is now playing with just their tip on the end of their cue please post their phone numbers, I have some land in Florida to sell you cheap, almost ocean front. Such a deal, I would not give to my own grandmother, such a deal, come right on up my boy.

 

[blud]

cues

Sir, all of the major advancements in Tennis and Golf have not come from the players but from advances in the equipment. These advances came from testing laboratories. We have been making the same cue for the last 50 years, we have had no advances. You say ignore all of this, I would guess becuase its obvious you understand none of it, which is why you keep making the same cue we had 50 years ago. A new article just went up on www.billiards-pool.net, 17 pages which describes the physics of this, do you care to comment on this, or is this over your head and education? Maybe somebody else can in your place. Nobody is saying any thing here on this forum, does that mean every ones clue less? I want for and for ask for answers, I get told to ignore it all, it means nothing, that is just a bunch of bunk. That is about as lame as it comes.

Barney, I am not clueless, sir..

The advances you speak of, with golf, tennis, did infact start with players.

All I am trying to say here is, it's up to each of us to decide what's best for each of us.

I do not build the same cue as has been done for 50 years or so as you say.

If you think I build cues as were built 50 years ago, you sir are mistaken. Pleae take the time to come visit my shop and see for yourself. That is if you know anything about cue construction, past or present? By the way your claiming, that I build cue as were built 50 years ago, you, sir are CLUELESS.

You have completely missed my point.
No two people hit the ball the same, nor do they get the same feeling out of the hit, and or results.. All cues do deflict........DUH......

I say and will always say, it's the player who will come with the answers. It may feel good to you and may not to another, so the player is and will be the one person who knows for sure, and damn sure not a ROBOT, or some guy sitting in a lab.......It all starts with the players.

Your so smart, come on down let us all see what you know about cue making?
You got it figured out, PLEASE........

With the technology of today, with glues, the ways to dry wood, so on and so forth, cues are not even close to how they were 50 years ago.

I make this challange to you, build a cue or many as most of us have, and or bring your "ROBOT", on down to play some, [ for any amount],and then speak your peace.
blud

 

[Troy]

Quote correctly Barney (or fast larry, or whoever you are) or don't quote at all.
Bob Jewett CLEARY stated he EXPERIMENTED with no ferrule.
If you choose to continuously harp on the no ferrule tidbit you will continue to make a fool of yourself.

Would every one who has torn off their ferrule and is now playing with just their tip on the end of their cue please post their phone numbers, I have some land in Florida to sell you cheap, almost ocean front. Such a deal, I would not give to my own grandmother, such a deal, come right on up my boy.

 

[blud]

tap tap

Quote correctly Barney (or fast larry, or whoever you are) or don't quote at all.
Bob Jewett CLEARY stated he EXPERIMENTED with no ferrule.
If you choose to continuously harp on the no ferrule tidbit you will continue to make a fool of yourself.

Way to go Troy, TAP, TAP,
BLUD

 

[Barney]

Way to go Troy, TAP, TAP,
BLUD

Now that is really intelligent, tap tap tap, you might also try ditto, ditto, ditto. Pat each other on the back for behaving like Neanderthals. You guys always resort to calling people fools don't you. Why don't you just answer my question, You convince me to blow a hundred bucks to put on an Ivory ferrule, you said it was the best, now Jewett comes on here and says it is no good and deflects the worst. Can I now take this back to my cue guy and demand a refund of my money and make him put back on my original ferrule. Was I conned here or what. This ivory ferrule is either good or bad, so which one is it? Somebody told me cue salesmen are nothing but carneys with good teeth or used car salesman out of a job.

 

[Joseph Cues]

Now that is really intelligent, tap tap tap, you might also try ditto, ditto, ditto. Pat each other on the back for behaving like Neanderthals. You guys always resort to calling people fools don't you. Why don't you just answer my question, You convince me to blow a hundred bucks to put on an Ivory ferrule, you said it was the best, now Jewett comes on here and says it is no good and deflects the worst. Can I now take this back to my cue guy and demand a refund of my money and make him put back on my original ferrule. Was I conned here or what. This ivory ferrule is either good or bad, so which one is it? Somebody told me cue salesmen are nothing but carneys with good teeth or used car salesman out of a job.

People have ivory ferrules installed b/c they like the feel of the hit of ivory. And it stays clean.
If you don't like the hit of it, then it has no value to you.
Some substitutes can be used too. Ivor-x or buckhorn for example.

 

[Barney]

People have ivory ferrules installed b/c they like the feel of the hit of ivory. And it stays clean.
If you don't like the hit of it, then it has no value to you.
Some substitutes can be used too. Ivor-x or buckhorn for example.

Another worthless answer that says nothing. The question is, does ivory deflect more than any other ferrule. Is it any good, or should I go back to my original soft ferrule. If it does deflect more than anything else, why would any one want to use it is the question. Feel what, missing and losing. Are you guys selling cues to hang on walls or to win and play with here?
Can somebody come up and not talk out of the sides of their mouths.
Thanks,
Barney Fife.

 

[shakes]

Another worthless answer that says nothing. The question is, does ivory deflect more than any other ferrule. Is it any good, or should I go back to my original soft ferrule. If it does deflect more than anything else, why would any one want to use it is the question. Feel what, missing and losing. Are you guys selling cues to hang on walls or to win and play with here?
Can somebody come up and not talk out of the sides of their mouths.
Thanks,
Barney Fife.

How about this Barney. Sell the cue and take up backgammon. The fact of the matter is, your cue, my cue, Blud's cue, JC's cue, or any other cue on the face of the planet is not going to make you a winner. Pool isn't like Tennis or Golf in that the fastest or farthest shots make it easier to progress. Time at the table, time with a teacher, and PRACTICE PRACTICE, and more PRACTICE are the things that are going to make balls go in the hole. I don't believe that Mosconi had any problems making balls go in with his cues made several decades ago. What everyone is trying to tell you is that PLAYING STYLE affects what type of ferrule, what type of tip, what type of taper and what kind of woods are used on their cue. The way that the cue gives you feedback when you strike the ball is more important than if your cue deflects a fraction of an inch more than another. Everyone here is sincerely attempting to help you see that but you can't seem to grasp what they are saying. Start over and read through what everyone is saying.

Ivory is a good ferrule.
Ivor-X is a good ferrule.
Phenolic is a good ferrule.

BUT, and here is the main point of what I think everyone is trying to say:

YOU have to decide which ferrule FEELS right when you strike the ball. NOT which one has the least amount of deflection. The taper and cuemaker's ability to choose good shaft wood are MUCH more important to cue deflection than ferrule choice.

Sorry so long, but take the time to consider these people ARE trying to help, I mean, you are taking the word over a man who is making MILLIONS off his cues using his "ROBOT research". None of the guys on here are saying, "Muecci is off his rocker, buy my cues." They are giving you the facts.

 

[Barney]

How about this Barney. Sell the cue and take up backgammon. The fact of the matter is, your cue, my cue, Blud's cue, JC's cue, or any other cue on the face of the planet is not going to make you a winner. Pool isn't like Tennis or Golf in that the fastest or farthest shots make it easier to progress. Time at the table, time with a teacher, and PRACTICE PRACTICE, and more PRACTICE are the things that are going to make balls go in the hole. I don't believe that Mosconi had any problems making balls go in with his cues made several decades ago. What everyone is trying to tell you is that PLAYING STYLE affects what type of ferrule, what type of tip, what type of taper and what kind of woods are used on their cue. The way that the cue gives you feedback when you strike the ball is more important than if your cue deflects a fraction of an inch more than another. Everyone here is sincerely attempting to help you see that but you can't seem to grasp what they are saying. Start over and read through what everyone is saying.

Ivory is a good ferrule.
Ivor-X is a good ferrule.
Phenolic is a good ferrule.

BUT, and here is the main point of what I think everyone is trying to say:

YOU have to decide which ferrule FEELS right when you strike the ball. NOT which one has the least amount of deflection. The taper and cuemaker's ability to choose good shaft wood are MUCH more important to cue deflection than ferrule choice.

Sorry so long, but take the time to consider these people ARE trying to help, I mean, you are taking the word over a man who is making MILLIONS off his cues using his "ROBOT research". None of the guys on here are saying, "Muecci is off his rocker, buy my cues." They are giving you the facts.

Hi, this is Barney Fife. I wonder what cue maker you are posting on your new alias. Lets see, most of you here can not crank out more than 125 cues a year and you make 100K, less expenses clear 60K, who is making millions other than Meucci. You make a cue that should not sell any more than $300 bucks but to stay in business you must sell it for $800 becuase you can only make 125 of them. The price of your cue has nothing to do with what you make, it is the income you desire to make.

surely none of you guys making 125 cues a year have a research lab or the money to test a damn thing. You want me to listen to these little people, one guy with a $5 an hour mexican in his shop telling me what to do. This guys does research?. This guy makes a $800 house cue that ends up hanging on a wall and plays like crap becuase the guy making it can't run 3 friggen balls and does not have a clue how to build a cue that can and does play.

You're wanting me to buy a 50 year old out of date cue that is the same as Mosconi played with. That is like telling me to go out and buy a wood tennis racket because tilden won with it in 32, or a persimmon head driver because Palmer won with it in 58, or wood shaft golf clubs because Bobby Jones won with it in 22.. You guys do not have a friggen clue what you are doing, you are building the past and are so out of date with what the real sports world is doing, it is scary. That is what you are telling me to listen to. One guy, making 125 cues in his garage with the $5 an hour mexican doing all the real work and really making his cues for him.
That is what is doing all the posting on this board. What I need, is somebody who has a brain, to answer my question, here it comes again, if ivory deflects the most and causes the most misses, why do you sell it, why did you convince me to put it on. Yes Mosconi used it in 38, but he had no other choice. Guys this is 04, not 1938. You end up saying deflection is not important, that proves to me, you cant run 3 friggen balls for sure. For you to say that, you do not know, squat. come on, come clean, what worthless overpriced wall hanger do you make? Have a nice day, Barney....

 

[Joseph Cues]

Looks like Fat Larry has another alias.

 

[Barney]

Looks like Fat Larry has another alias.

Hey fat boy, is not shakes your under your rock name as well, gees pot calls the kettle black here, you bozos and your double standards. You still will not answer my ivory question, will you turkey?

have a nice day, Barney Fife.