Flat tip vs. Radius

[Chili Palmer]

Man's been following me around for no reason. You can look at today's post history of mine and his.

You'll just have to believe me when I say I know how you feel but, I've read very few of your posts and you're fairly aggressive.

(for those reading this and thinking - well there's a pot meeting a kettle - yep, except this kettle has cooled...a little....)

 

[Chili Palmer]

I have not seen a pattern here. If it bothers you, use the ignore function, it works well on this site.

I would recommend he use the report feature, it leaves a paper trail - it also allows the moderators to determine who is really the a-hole.

 

[MattPoland]

Honestly I've never considered this before. So I'm just trying to take the idea and exaggerate it. So in a small scale you might accidentally be off center and then still hitting straight.

But then what happens when you do want spin. Exaggerating that means you need greater offset to get past the flat portion before you "get on the curve". And then your curve will be more aggressive than if it was smooth to start with. For example, start with a dime and then flatten it means you have something less curved than a nickel and then suddenly full curve of a dime. So now you might have more risk of miscue?

I could be way off base here. I just wanted to create the visuals first and then see what that seemed to suggest to me. And this suggests applying english with a full parallel shift. If you have FHE or BHE, that flat tip could be changing the trajectory of the cueball.

 

[Texas3cushion]

I use a flat phenolic tip to play one pocket and it works just fine.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Honestly I've never considered this before. So I'm just trying to take the idea and exaggerate it. So in a small scale you might accidentally be off center and then still hitting straight.
View attachment 737633

But then what happens when you do want spin. Exaggerating that means you need greater offset to get past the flat portion before you "get on the curve". And then your curve will be more aggressive than if it was smooth to start with. For example, start with a dime and then flatten it means you have something less curved than a nickel and then suddenly full curve of a dime. So now you might have more risk of miscue?

View attachment 737638

I could be way off base here. I just wanted to create the visuals first and then see what that seemed to suggest to me. And this suggests applying english with a full parallel shift. If you have FHE or BHE, that flat tip could be changing the trajectory of the cueball.

Draw it with a small circle and a medium circle for tips, but yes, in your example a square tip would do exactly as you've drawn. A tip with larger radius would not.

In the drawing above, use the "circular tip" as a 50 cent piece and then draw a dime in the middle of it and see where the dime contacts and the 50 cent piece. The dime will be at a higher degree of angle when it contacts the CB, thus allowing a greater chance of miscue.

There is an obvious thing that hasn't been discussed so I'll throw it out there - with a flatter tip you have to get further away from the center of the CB but, the angle at contact wouldn't be as great.

 

[bbb]

from dr dave
seems rounder is better than flatter
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As shown in the diagram below, for a given cue tip position, a rounder tip will result in more spin since the tip contact point is farther from CB center with a rounder tip. However, for a given tip contact point position, all tip shapes will result in the same amount of spin. You just need to visualize and focus on the tip contact point, and not the tip position, when applying spin. This is especially important for people who use “tips” of english, where tips of different sizes and shapes will result in different amounts of spin for a given number of “tips.” For more info, see “Squirt – Part VI: tip shape” (BD, January, 2008).

Another concern related to shaft diameter is bridge comfort. With a closed bridge, some shaft sizes and tapers will be more comfortable than others to different individuals. This is less of a concern with an open bridge.

 

[smiling_Hans]

I prefer the flatter tip personally. Most tip replacement guys will replace it with a nice round one and it is up to you to take it down.

 

[Chili Palmer]

from dr dave
seems rounder is better than flatter
...................................
...................................................
As shown in the diagram below, for a given cue tip position, a rounder tip will result in more spin since the tip contact point is farther from CB center with a rounder tip. However, for a given tip contact point position, all tip shapes will result in the same amount of spin. You just need to visualize and focus on the tip contact point, and not the tip position, when applying spin. This is especially important for people who use “tips” of english, where tips of different sizes and shapes will result in different amounts of spin for a given number of “tips.” For more info, see “Squirt – Part VI: tip shape” (BD, January, 2008).

Another concern related to shaft diameter is bridge comfort. With a closed bridge, some shaft sizes and tapers will be more comfortable than others to different individuals. This is less of a concern with an open bridge.

But I'm not talking about the same centerline, I'm referring to contact point. Move the larger radius tip to make contact at the same point the smaller radius makes contact and what's the angle at contact? That's what I was referring to when discussing the centerline of the cue with a flatter tip, the centerline will need to be more offset than one with a smaller tip but, given the flatter radius the angle of contact will be less, therefore, less chance of miscue.

 

[irspow]

I’ve been doing some research and doing so I’ve found a formula that applies to this discussion.

C=(RA)/(R+r)

C = contact point on cueball
R = radius of cueball
A = aim distance from center cueball
r = radius of tip curvature

Notice. The smaller the tip radius, the closer you will hit to your intended aiming point. As r approaches zero, C=A. But r cannot be smaller than the radius of the shaft.

As r approaches infinity, C=0, meaning you hit center cue ball no matter how large A is. In practical terms A can never be more than the radius of the cueball plus the shaft radius. Furthermore the theoretical max offset is 0.6R. So A is really at a max when:

A=3(R+r)/5

So generally, the smaller r is the closer you will actually hit the cue ball to where you aimed. It takes less aim offset to get a given spin rate with a small r versus a larger r. The flatter the tip the closer to center cueball you will hit getting less spin than you would with a small r. And a large r requires more aim offset than a small r to get the same spin.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I’ve been doing some research and doing so I’ve found a formula that applies to this discussion.

C=(RA)/(R+r)

C = contact point on cueball
R = radius of cueball
A = aim distance from center cueball
r = radius of tip curvature

Notice. The smaller the tip radius, the closer you will hit to your intended aiming point. As r approaches zero, C=A. But r cannot be smaller than the radius of the shaft.

As r approaches infinity, C=0, meaning you hit center cue ball no matter how large A is. In practical terms A can never be more than the radius of the cueball plus the shaft radius.

So generally, the smaller r is the closer you will actually hit the cue ball to where you aimed. It takes less aim offset to get a given spin rate with a small r versus a larger r. The flatter the tip the closer to center cueball you will hit getting less spin than you would with a small r. And a large r requires more offset than a small r to get the same spin.

Now forget about how close you hit the point you aimed at, and move the contact point to the edge of the CB and what's the difference in contact at angle.

And because I like to play devil's advocate - does your equation also prove that a rounder tip will allow for more error? If I can move it less to get a more accurate hit, don't I get a less accurate hit the more I move it? Seems amateurs should stay away from skinny tips? I say that because I have an elderly friend I play with frequently and he read/heard somewhere that a skinny tip is better so he went bought one. Then, one day, we're playing and he's miscuing like crazy and he kept saying - I have to get used to this shaft. I said, why'd you change, you never miscued before? I would say for the next 6 months I could tell when he was playing with the skinny shaft, it wasn't good.

If we're talking pro's, then yep, a skinny tip may benefit them but, unless you have perfect control of you tip location then a skinny tip could (will probably be) detrimental to your game.

 

[bbb]

But I'm not talking about the same centerline, I'm referring to contact point. Move the larger radius tip to make contact at the same point the smaller radius makes contact and what's the angle at contact? That's what I was referring to when discussing the centerline of the cue with a flatter tip, the centerline will need to be more offset than one with a smaller tip but, given the flatter radius the angle of contact will be less, therefore, less chance of miscue.

doesnt the "more angle" imply more surface contact?

 

[Chili Palmer]

doesnt the "more angle" imply more surface contact?

Doesn't the higher the angle the better chance of the CB squirting off to the side - all other things being equal of course.

I guess the question becomes - does the additional contact point outweigh that change in angle?

Would you rather run straight into a wall or glance off sideways?

 

[irspow]

Now forget about how close you hit the point you aimed at, and move the contact point to the edge of the CB and what's the difference in contact at angle.

And because I like to play devil's advocate - does your equation also prove that a rounder tip will allow for more error? If I can move it less to get a more accurate hit, don't I get a less accurate hit the more I move it? Seems amateurs should stay away from skinny tips? I say that because I have an elderly friend I play with frequently and he read/heard somewhere that a skinny tip is better so he went bought one. Then, one day, we're playing and he's miscuing like crazy and he kept saying - I have to get used to this shaft. I said, why'd you change, you never miscued before? I would say for the next 6 months I could tell when he was playing with the skinny shaft, it wasn't good.

If we're talking pro's, then yep, a skinny tip may benefit them but, unless you have perfect control of you tip location then a skinny tip could (will probably be) detrimental to your game.

The contact point cannot be at the cueball edge. Miscue will occur at .6R

Yes a larger tip radius is more ‘forgiving’ and a smaller r is more precise (less forgiving). However it is harder, you need more offset, to get spin with a large r.

 

[Chili Palmer]

The contact point cannot be at the cueball edge. Miscue will occur at .6R

Yes a larger tip radius is more ‘forgiving’ and a smaller r is more precise (less forgiving). However it is harder, you need more offset, to get spin with a large r.

I suppose I shouldn't have used "edge", but rather, extreme english.

 

[irspow]

I suppose I shouldn't have used "edge", but rather, extreme english.

Miscue limit contact point is .6R. ‘Extreme english’ is generally regarded as .5R contact point. (It is why playing the ‘miscue limit’ of a .5R contact point leaves a little room for error.) That’s why the best players can hit .5R ‘limit’ and still rarely actually miscue.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Well forget all the math. If anyone wants to try this just take a piece of sandpaper to the front of your tip and hit a few racks. You can do it by hand easily.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Miscue limit contact point is .6R. ‘Extreme english’ is generally regarded as .5R contact point. (It is why playing the ‘miscue limit’ of a .5R contact point leaves a little room for error.) That’s why the best players can hit .5R ‘limit’ and still rarely actually miscue.

I hit pretty far on the outside of the CB but have never measured. I have a 16'sh oz cue I play with and when I have a hard tip on I have to be careful on soft shots with lots of english, I believe the lightweight cue doesn't have the force to keep contact long enough and I miscue more. It's the only cue I put soft tips on.

 

[irspow]

I hit pretty far on the outside of the CB but have never measured. I have a 16'sh oz cue I play with and when I have a hard tip on I have to be careful on soft shots with lots of english, I believe the lightweight cue doesn't have the force to keep contact long enough and I miscue more. It's the only cue I put soft tips on.

From other calculations I’ve done, generally speaking, you can align the inside edge of your shaft at a quarter of the cueball. Any more than that a you most likely will scratch. You essentially will be using the shoulder of your tip. And if you are going to be hitting firm, you want to aim the center of your shaft at the cueball quarter.

 

[Chili Palmer]

From other calculations I’ve done, generally speaking, you can align the inside edge of your shaft at a quarter of the cueball. Any more than that a you most likely will scratch. You essentially will be using the shoulder of your tip. And if you are going to be hitting firm, you want to aim the center of your shaft at the cueball quarter.

When needed, I absolutely use the shoulder of my tip (that is why I miscue with skinny tips, I do know that), I've heard many, many people over the years mention it when shooting.

I'd imagine, if I actually tried to get accustom to a skinny tip I would eventually get used to it, but at my age (mid 50's, been playing since mid 80's) and my pool aspirations (have fun) I have no reason to try, I give low deflection shafts the same courtesy, I just don't see a reason to put the time and effort into it when what I have works for me.

I will say, this conversation overall has changed my view towards skinny tips but, I still won't recommend them to anyone I know.

 

[bbb]

Doesn't the higher the angle the better chance of the CB squirting off to the side - all other things being equal of course.

I guess the question becomes - does the additional contact point outweigh that change in angle?

Would you rather run straight into a wall or glance off sideways?

i think chalk gives friction and grab to the tip
so i think the extra surface area wins
i dont think your question is representative
icbw
and its time for dinner....