Flaws in joint?

[Tommy-D]

> A friend recently had a new custom cue made,nothing really fancy,but unique,but has a couple issues as well. The joint is a short (3/4 or so) piloted phenolic over bacote,with exposed bacote down inside the pilot. The flaw is in the joint facing. The phenolic is obviously threaded onto the bacote,because there is a noticable gap where the phenolic chipped away when faced and you can see the wood next to the phenolic spiraling down further into the collar. This gap has some ragged edges as well,and to look at it with the pin dead center,it looks like the phenolic is thicker on one side than the other,as if the whole thing was machined off center. The shaft mates perfectly,although there is a less noticable similar flaw in the shaft collar as well,but it faces nice and snug,and fit of the collars over the finish is practically flawless. It hits great,so there must not be any negative effects of these flaws in the joint. My question is,with the flaws I have described,is this something of an occasional hazard of facing threaded collars,a mistake that should have been corrected before shipping,a flaw in his technique or tooling,or a result of laziness or haste? This wasn't an expensive cue,but still cost decent money,and was made pretty quickly,I'd say less than a month of actual working time,once he actually started on it. It's a very simple cue,bacote front and butt sleeve with a curly maple grip section,with the above described joint,so I think maybe this was just being unfamiliar with a joint of this type,he is typically a steel joint proponent. Please,offer your input,Tommy D.

 

[Michael Webb]

I would talk to the maker about your concerns, He may have used a deburring tool on the phenalics, which may look like a gap because it slants the phenalics a little because of it's shape. If a deburring tool was used, I wouldn't worry.

 

[macguy]

> A friend recently had a new custom cue made,nothing really fancy,but unique,but has a couple issues as well. The joint is a short (3/4 or so) piloted phenolic over bacote,with exposed bacote down inside the pilot. The flaw is in the joint facing. The phenolic is obviously threaded onto the bacote,because there is a noticable gap where the phenolic chipped away when faced and you can see the wood next to the phenolic spiraling down further into the collar. This gap has some ragged edges as well,and to look at it with the pin dead center,it looks like the phenolic is thicker on one side than the other,as if the whole thing was machined off center. The shaft mates perfectly,although there is a less noticable similar flaw in the shaft collar as well,but it faces nice and snug,and fit of the collars over the finish is practically flawless. It hits great,so there must not be any negative effects of these flaws in the joint. My question is,with the flaws I have described,is this something of an occasional hazard of facing threaded collars,a mistake that should have been corrected before shipping,a flaw in his technique or tooling,or a result of laziness or haste? This wasn't an expensive cue,but still cost decent money,and was made pretty quickly,I'd say less than a month of actual working time,once he actually started on it. It's a very simple cue,bacote front and butt sleeve with a curly maple grip section,with the above described joint,so I think maybe this was just being unfamiliar with a joint of this type,he is typically a steel joint proponent. Please,offer your input,Tommy D.

From what you describe it is normal for one side to appear thicker then the other based on what part of the thread is exposed. The joint is in fact probably centered. You can remedy it by not threading all the way through and having the top exposed part a straight slightly smaller hole. It is not that much more work and does add a element of additional look of quality. In a way that is what separates cues as to value. Some just have a little added touch that make them just a little nicer and in my opinion all things being equal, worth a little more.

 

[Tommy-D]

> Now that Mike mentioned it,it certainly does look like a deburr tool was used,but the gap isn't the same all the way around,most of the surface is nice and flat,then there is a gap almost 1/16 wide around 1/4 long on one side,like it was deburred very poorly. I will make an effort to get pics to post,since this is not my cue. It almost looks like he got the joint installed perfectly,then took off too much when facing,and the mistake showed up on the final cut. I have looked this cue over with a jewelers loupe and can find nothing else wrong. Tommy D.

 

[hadjcues]

IMO, from the description, the joint was threaded all the way through. Facing specially when it hits the threaded portion culd bring out such. If it doesnt affect the hit then let it be, otherwise you could fill the gap with stained epoxy to match the joint color then face off again.

On the part where one side of the joint seems thicker, it could be it wasn't centered properly when turned or the cue warped during the process of making it.

HadjCues

 

[merylane]

> I have looked this cue over with a jewelers loupe and can find nothing else wrong. Tommy D.

.

this sounds to me like you got an excelent cue.

 

[Tommy-D]

> In this case,I wish I had,the cue wasn't mine. He noticed these things,and knew I would notice them as soon as I looked at it. If it were mine,I'd have to send it back. My reason for sending it back immediately isn't the typical "I won't accept anything less than perfection". Even as minor as it is,it would EVENTUALLY bug me to the point of sending it back after a few hundred hours of play,by that time the joint would be somewhat dirty,and foreign material like that and glue do not mix,and may compromise the integrity of the repair. In my mind,fixing it before it gets played with would be my concern. I have seen 20-30 other cues from this same guy,and have never seen anything like it,but as I said in my first post,this guy typically does the traditional stainless collar. In all my other experience with his cues,this is the first actual flaw I've seen,other than an occasional glue line,which I'm certain happens to everyone periodically. Tommy D.

 

[macguy]

> In this case,I wish I had,the cue wasn't mine. He noticed these things,and knew I would notice them as soon as I looked at it. If it were mine,I'd have to send it back. My reason for sending it back immediately isn't the typical "I won't accept anything less than perfection". Even as minor as it is,it would EVENTUALLY bug me to the point of sending it back after a few hundred hours of play,by that time the joint would be somewhat dirty,and foreign material like that and glue do not mix,and may compromise the integrity of the repair. In my mind,fixing it before it gets played with would be my concern. I have seen 20-30 other cues from this same guy,and have never seen anything like it,but as I said in my first post,this guy typically does the traditional stainless collar. In all my other experience with his cues,this is the first actual flaw I've seen,other than an occasional glue line,which I'm certain happens to everyone periodically. Tommy D.

Honestly, if you returned the cue for something as minor as that he should just give you a refund and mark you off his list of customers and sell the cue to someone else. To ask him to replace that joint and collars then have to refit and finish the area would be ridiculous. Like I said in my other post, those kind of details are what separates the cues as to value. If that small flaw occurred in the making of the cue and the cue maker replaced it when the cue was being made to be totally sure the cue was as flawless as possibly the cue would be twice the price I am sure if the cue maker did that kind of attention to detail work. He made your friend a nice cue from what you describe and I am sure is a conscientious cue maker but you have to be realistic. He sold a nice cue at a fair price, not a perfect cue.

 

[rhncue]

Honestly, if you returned the cue for something as minor as that he should just give you a refund and mark you off his list of customers and sell the cue to someone else. To ask him to replace that joint and collars then have to refit and finish the area would be ridiculous. Like I said in my other post, those kind of details are what separates the cues as to value. If that small flaw occurred in the making of the cue and the cue maker replaced it when the cue was being made to be totally sure the cue was as flawless as possibly the cue would be twice the price I am sure if the cue maker did that kind of attention to detail work. He made your friend a nice cue from what you describe and I am sure is a conscious cue maker but you have to be realistic. He sold a nice cue at a fair price, not a perfect cue.

I have to agree here. Working with woods, little things happen at times and as long as it is still structurely sound I still sell the cue but at a discount as the buyer can see what he is buying. If it is a custom cue then I start over with a new one for them or let them see the defect and decide if they still want it at a discount. I do this because the price was given to the buyer on a perfect cue and of coarse that is what he expects for that price.
I read on a forum one time that a person was at a cue show and that one better none cuemaker had a cue for sale that had some flaw. When it was pointed out to him, it was said. that he immiediatley took the cue over and cut it in half and threw it away saying that if it wasn't perfect he wouldn't sell it. This thourghly impressed the buyer. I, myself, then responded that the cuemaker was either a real good salesman or an inept cuemaker. If a cuemaker has finished a cue and has it on display to sell and the flaw is great enough to destroy the cue, he himself, should have seen it long before that point. If he can't see such a bad flaw that a customer can point it out then how do you know there's no structural flaws that you can't see. Of course it was probably salesmanship and he had the cue there just for the purpose of cutting it up.
Dick

 

[cuesmith]

I have to agree here. Working with woods, little things happen at times and as long as it is still structurely sound I still sell the cue but at a discount as the buyer can see what he is buying. If it is a custom cue then I start over with a new one for them or let them see the defect and decide if they still want it at a discount. I do this because the price was given to the buyer on a perfect cue and of coarse that is what he expects for that price.
I read on a forum one time that a person was at a cue show and that one better none cuemaker had a cue for sale that had some flaw. When it was pointed out to him, it was said. that he immiediatley took the cue over and cut it in half and threw it away saying that if it wasn't perfect he wouldn't sell it. This thourghly impressed the buyer. I, myself, then responded that the cuemaker was either a real good salesman or an inept cuemaker. If a cuemaker has finished a cue and has it on display to sell and the flaw is great enough to destroy the cue, he himself, should have seen it long before that point. If he can't see such a bad flaw that a customer can point it out then how do you know there's no structural flaws that you can't see. Of course it was probably salesmanship and he had the cue there just for the purpose of cutting it up.
Dick

There was another very well known cuemaker who was approached by a customer at a show, who'd put on his reading glasses and was pointing out what he considered a flaw in one of the cues on display. The cuemaker reached over and took off the customers reading glasses and told him that his cues were fine art, not to be examined under a loop, but to be enjoyed at arms length!


just more hot air!


Sherm

 

[Michael Webb]

There was another very well known cuemaker who was approached by a customer at a show, who'd put on his reading glasses and was pointing out what he considered a flaw in one of the cues on display. The cuemaker reached over and took off the customers reading glasses and told him that his cues were fine art, not to be examined under a loop, but to be enjoyed at arms length!


just more hot air!


Sherm

That's pretty funny.

 

[matthew staton]

There was another very well known cuemaker who was approached by a customer at a show, who'd put on his reading glasses and was pointing out what he considered a flaw in one of the cues on display. The cuemaker reached over and took off the customers reading glasses and told him that his cues were fine art, not to be examined under a loop, but to be enjoyed at arms length!


just more hot air!


Sherm

Thats funny sherm I hope i never get a cue like that from any cue maker!!