For the Science Guys #1

[lfigueroa]

Over on another board, a great bank pool player made the following claim(s) concerning the shot below:

CueTable Help

"Squeezing the butt firmly during the delivery will put maximum collision induced throw on the ob ball -- which is what you need because you cant use much helping eng. because you are jacked up and very close to the cushion. There are other uses for the squeeze like slowing down the cue ball and speeding up the ob ball."

For the science guys (you know who you are

Will squeezing the butt of the cue create more CIT?

Will squeezing the butt of the cue slow down the CB?

Will squeezing the butt of the cue speed up the OB?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Lou Figueroa
not a science guy

 

[PKM]

Sounds pretty wacky to me.

I think you need voodoo guys, not science guys for that one.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Over on another board, a great bank pool player made the following claim(s) concerning the shot below:

CueTable Help

"Squeezing the butt firmly during the delivery will put maximum collision induced throw on the ob ball -- which is what you need because you cant use much helping eng. because you are jacked up and very close to the cushion. There are other uses for the squeeze like slowing down the cue ball and speeding up the ob ball."

For the science guys (you know who you are

Will squeezing the butt of the cue create more CIT?

Will squeezing the butt of the cue slow down the CB?

Will squeezing the butt of the cue speed up the OB?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Lou Figueroa
not a science guy

You don't need a science guy; you need an agent - this is great stuff.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

Over on another board, a great bank pool player made the following claim(s) concerning the shot below:

CueTable Help

"Squeezing the butt firmly during the delivery will put maximum collision induced throw on the ob ball -- which is what you need because you cant use much helping eng. because you are jacked up and very close to the cushion. There are other uses for the squeeze like slowing down the cue ball and speeding up the ob ball."

For the science guys (you know who you are

Will squeezing the butt of the cue create more CIT?

Will squeezing the butt of the cue slow down the CB?

Will squeezing the butt of the cue speed up the OB?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Lou Figueroa
not a science guy

I wait with baited breath.

Bet the science guys are going to want to make fun of this one. Squeezing the butt of the cue may tend to warp the butt depending upon the muscle strength of the shooter. OK, I'm j'k.

Squeezing the butt of the cue MAY slow up the speed of the stroke since it is likely that the wrist will be more rigid: also it may keep the cue tip from hitting the same spot on the cue ball if your wrist was loose.

I'm not sure the science guys will give a good answer on this, at least not right away. This is not something that science guys do. oke:

JoeyA

 

[DoubleA]

I wait with baited breath.

Bet the science guys are going to want to make fun of this one. Squeezing the butt of the cue may tend to warp the butt depending upon the muscle strength of the shooter. OK, I'm j'k.

Squeezing the butt of the cue MAY slow up the speed of the stroke since it is likely that the wrist will be more rigid: also it may keep the cue tip from hitting the same spot on the cue ball if your wrist was loose.

I'm not sure the science guys will give a good answer on this, at least not right away. This is not something that science guys do. oke:

JoeyA

Squeezing the butt almost always makes my stroke speed up. LOL

 

[TX Poolnut]

After the ball leaves the tip, it obviously doesn't remember how you were holding the cue. What possible impact could holding the cue tighter have on the CB or the resulting collision between the CB and OB?

This is truly some weird science.

 

[eze]

Squeezing the butt almost always makes my stroke speed up. LOL

That post just dont sound right,,,,,

 

[JoeyA]

Squeezing the butt almost always makes my stroke speed up. LOL

Funny, you should say that. I just visited the pool hall and set up this shot, making it with regularity but yes, I hit the shot much faster than normal. :embarrassed2:

The only way for me to make the shot consistently was to hit the shot with a quick stroke. Holding the cue tightly did help me make the shot because seemingly when I let up on the grip I would almost always double kiss but my shot was a little tougher than the one in Lou's diagram.

I believe when I hit that shot hard, jacked up with a tight grip, the cue ball squirts out of the way of the object ball and allows it to bank. Still don't know what the right grip does but it works for me.

I didn't pay close enough attention to Lou's diagram and didn't realize that he was banking it three rails. LOL that's the only reason that my shot was a little tougher is that I banked it one rail and put the object ball closer to the rail & a little closer to the corner pocket and the CB on the same line as the OB. Well, now I am certain the science guys might be able to give some thoughts but they won't be trying the three railer.

JoeyA

 

[td873]

Over on another board, a great bank pool player made the following claim(s) concerning the shot below:

Will squeezing the butt of the cue create more CIT?
NO
Will squeezing the butt of the cue slow down the CB?
NO
Will squeezing the butt of the cue speed up the OB?
NO
Inquiring minds need to know.

Squeezing the butt will do nothing to the object ball. Just goes to show that great players sometimes don't know why they are great.

The illustrated shot is more difficult than it looks due to the speed necessary to pocket the object ball and being jacked up. The cue ball tends to hop off the table more times than not.

If you move the cue ball away from the rail, this shot looks just like the 3 railer in the side pocket, which can be made with any english you want since it is the speed and angle the OB hits the first rail that makes the shot. Down here we call it rail crush.

As I see the shot illustrated, the crossing cue ball puts opposite english than the shot needs to go 3 rails. And I don't think you can transfer enough english to make the 3 railer work at those speeds anyway.

-td

 

[i need somethin]

Wheres "the beard" when u need him????

 

[lfigueroa]

Sounds pretty wacky to me.

I think you need voodoo guys, not science guys for that one.

Yeah, I think, on its surface, it's pretty whacked, too. But I have an open mind.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

You don't need a science guy; you need an agent - this is great stuff.

pj
chgo

So let me ask you, Patrick, since my memory ain't so good: in the original Jacksonville experiments, was there not an issue with Iron Willie's grip being too tight and they modified it with bubble wrap to more closely resemble the give that a human hand would have? I recall that the too tight grip was creating problems with the experiment...

What I'm getting at is: maybe, somewhere along the continuum of an Iron Willie grip and bubble wrap, there this tighter, squeezing the butt grip, that would also change the outcome of hitting a CB.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I wait with baited breath.

Bet the science guys are going to want to make fun of this one. Squeezing the butt of the cue may tend to warp the butt depending upon the muscle strength of the shooter. OK, I'm j'k.

Squeezing the butt of the cue MAY slow up the speed of the stroke since it is likely that the wrist will be more rigid: also it may keep the cue tip from hitting the same spot on the cue ball if your wrist was loose.

I'm not sure the science guys will give a good answer on this, at least not right away. This is not something that science guys do. oke:

JoeyA

lol. Well, I'm mostly interested in the CIT part of the claim and thought the SG would be happy to elaborate. I do agreed that a tighter grip is somewhat obviously going to change cue delivery speed. But I get the feeling the guy is claiming the tighter grip is somehow magically responsible.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

After the ball leaves the tip, it obviously doesn't remember how you were holding the cue. What possible impact could holding the cue tighter have on the CB or the resulting collision between the CB and OB?

This is truly some weird science.

I think I agree, but I was hoping the slide rule and pocket protector set would weigh in with some big steaming piles of equations. Or at least a high speed video or two

But now that you mention it, I seem to recall some work that detailed cue tip contact time and how long it took for the impact to travel the length of the cue and back to the cue tip. Basically, the conclusion was that the cue ball was lonnnnnnnnnnng gone by the time anything -- even something as close to the the tip as the joint -- could have any effect on the cue ball.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Funny, you should say that. I just visited the pool hall and set up this shot, making it with regularity but yes, I hit the shot much faster than normal. :embarrassed2:

The only way for me to make the shot consistently was to hit the shot with a quick stroke. Holding the cue tightly did help me make the shot because seemingly when I let up on the grip I would almost always double kiss but my shot was a little tougher than the one in Lou's diagram.

I believe when I hit that shot hard, jacked up with a tight grip, the cue ball squirts out of the way of the object ball and allows it to bank. Still don't know what the right grip does but it works for me.

I didn't pay close enough attention to Lou's diagram and didn't realize that he was banking it three rails. LOL that's the only reason that my shot was a little tougher is that I banked it one rail and put the object ball closer to the rail & a little closer to the corner pocket and the CB on the same line as the OB. Well, now I am certain the science guys might be able to give some thoughts but they won't be trying the three railer.

JoeyA

Joey, I like your theory about the additional squirt at high speed. But again, I'm not sure the grip, tight or loose, is in play.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Squeezing the butt will do nothing to the object ball. Just goes to show that great players sometimes don't know why they are great.

The illustrated shot is more difficult than it looks due to the speed necessary to pocket the object ball and being jacked up. The cue ball tends to hop off the table more times than not.

If you move the cue ball away from the rail, this shot looks just like the 3 railer in the side pocket, which can be made with any english you want since it is the speed and angle the OB hits the first rail that makes the shot. Down here we call it rail crush.

As I see the shot illustrated, the crossing cue ball puts opposite english than the shot needs to go 3 rails. And I don't think you can transfer enough english to make the 3 railer work at those speeds anyway.

-td

Well, I do believe the shot, in principle, works. (Maybe I didn't diagram it exactly right.) But I do agree that this might be a case of a great player finding a technique that produces the results he wants, but has come up with a less than scientific explanation.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Wheres "the beard" when u need him????

oh, I wouldn't be surprised if he was lurking around in the background on this one

Lou Figueroa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So let me ask you, Patrick, since my memory ain't so good: in the original Jacksonville experiments, was there not an issue with Iron Willie's grip being too tight and they modified it with bubble wrap to more closely resemble the give that a human hand would have? I recall that the too tight grip was creating problems with the experiment...

What I'm getting at is: maybe, somewhere along the continuum of an Iron Willie grip and bubble wrap, there this tighter, squeezing the butt grip, that would also change the outcome of hitting a CB.

Lou Figueroa

I think the Jacksonville Iron Willie grip was "softened" to see if it had any unusual effect, but it didn't.

I don't think gripping tighter can appreciably "stiffen" the connection between the hand and the cue.

Anyway, I don't think an appreciably stiffer connection would do anything that simply hitting a little harder wouldn't do.

pj
chgo

 

[3kushn]

My 2c. Slightly off topic but.

A tight grip does influence the cue ball.
Tightening the grip at impact does influence the CB.

INDIRECTLY.

What it might do to an OB is probably nothing.

I say indirectly because we can't argue that cue action changes with grip tightness. Why are we told to have a light grip? I presume for better cue action allowing, the cue to do it's job? The argument that the ball doesn't know how tight the wrist is, because the ball has left the scene, can also be made for follow through. Good follow through is also advised regardless of the fact that the ball is gone.

Here's an example of a shot where I may tighten the grip just prior to impact. The CB line flattens.

http://CueTable.com/C/?@01ALcX4BOJH3CGjG1ULcX3UGJr3UcAP3UcAP4USKs4UcAL4UPoP4UPoP4UPoP1uBGA@

 

[androd]

My 2c. Slightly off topic but.

A tight grip does influence the cue ball.
Tightening the grip at impact does influence the CB.

INDIRECTLY.

What it might do to an OB is probably nothing.( or maybe it's something that a 3 cushion player wouldn't notice )

I say indirectly because we can't argue that cue action changes with grip tightness. Why are we told to have a light grip? I presume for better cue action allowing, the cue to do it's job? The argument that the ball doesn't know how tight the wrist is, because the ball has left the scene, can also be made for follow through. Good follow through is also advised regardless of the fact that the ball is gone.




Of course you're correct. I defy all the people who play loose or somewhat loose( the same ones who say it makes "no difference" ) to grip the cue tightly and play anywhere near their speed.
PS; Been there done that.
Rod.