Forfeit question

Jimmy_Betmore

Jimmy_Betmore

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We all know the the rule concerning breaking down your cue during a match being a forfeit in most (if not all) leagues. And while I understand the need for the rule, I'm curious if I could be called for this for something that I do.

I play in VNEA 8-ball league in Dayton, OH. We play exclusively in bars, most of which, are fairly tight quarters. Because of this, I usually only remove and assemble my break cue when it's my turn to break. If I make a ball on the break, I'll disassemble my break cue, put it back in my case, and then assemble my playing cue and continue with the rack. I only do this in an attempt to minimize the possibility of damage or theft of my cues.

So, is the act of breaking down my break cue a forfeit? I know the "easy" solution is to just leave both cues assembled for the entire game, but if I don't have to, I'd rather not. What are your opinions?

Edited for missing words.



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Taking cue apart.

Jimmy_Betmore said:
We all know the the rule concerning breaking down your cue during a match being a forfeit in most (if not all) leagues. And while I understand the need for the rule, I'm curious if I could be called for this for something that I do.

I play in VNEA 8-ball league in Dayton, OH. We play exclusively in bars, most of which, are fairly tight quarters. Because of this, I usually only remove and assemble my break cue when it's my turn to break. If I make a ball on the break, I'll disassemble my break cue, put it back in my case, and then assemble my playing cue and continue with the rack. I only do this in an attempt to minimize the possibility of damage or theft of my cues.

So, is the act of breaking down my break cue a forfeit? I know the "easy" solution is to just leave both cues assembled for the entire game, but if I don't have to, I'd rather not. What are your opinions?

Edited for missing words.

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Assembling a break cue or dis-assembling a jump/break cue should not be a problem.

But taking down your shooting cue is seen as a sign of concession, not to mention sharking. When a player does that , I stop shooting and consider the game over...
 
Anyone who would call it on you is a douche bag. Avoid those people. As for the specifics, ask Neil... He seems to care about the petty technicalities.
 
Good question. I would think that anytime you break down a cue it's considered concession, player, breaker, or otherwise. Besides that, you know as well as I do that if it comes to a match that involves a spot at the national tournament or finals on league playoff night if there isn't a clear rule that says you can do this someone will try to call you on it because you broke down you cue. Honestly, they'll have a pretty good argument for it. Additionally, as a member of an opposing or observing team I'd probably consider it a shark attempt and you know there is gonna be someone that whines about a sportsmanship violation. It just seems like trouble that could be avoided and personally, I hate losing to the rule book and referee as opposed the opponent that simply played better than me. If this is in a team situation how does your team feel about it?
 
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I will echo Easy's first sentence on this one.

Specially in VNEA. We have quite a few people who do the same in our league and no one gives it a second glance.
 
You break down your playing cue and put together your break cue ... then break and then break down your break cue and put your playing cue back together every time you need to break?

Maybe I am reading it wrong. Seems like a lot. Maybe place the break cue under the table your playing on if you or your opponent thinks your taking too much time or wants to call a foul
 
The way I understand this, as long as it's your inning, you can break down your playing cue, change shafts, whatever you need to do. Since your question was about a breaking cue, the idea that it would be viewed as a shark tactic is ludicrous. Also, you say, "If I make a ball on the break", so clearly it's still your inning, and you're free to disassemble your breaker.
What's a little confusing is that you add, "I'll then assemble my playing cue." I can't help but think that with all that assembly/disassembly going on, there's going to be a point where you're doing some of that during your opponent's inning. People may also look upon it as a delay of game.

Just be aware that there's always going to be "That Guy", who will scratch and claw onto every little technicality (and even invent a few) in order to get out from under a loss, so it may be a good idea to ask the tournament director beforehand so you'll know where you stand.

Ken
 
In my opinion, this is ridiculous.

If I was ref, I would call that as unsportsmanlike conduct.

If not, you make one move out of place, I would call concession.

Pool is a gentleman's sport at its base. That extranneous activity is simply a shark.
 
I asked my teammates about it and they all feel like it shouldn't be a concession. However, that doesn't mean it isn't. And, admittedly, I haven't checked a rule book to see if this particular situation is covered.

Concerning, time. It literally takes one minute. I wouldn't bat an eye if an opponent did this. In addition, in VNEA, we only break twice per EVENING. Each team member plays only four games. (Not really a set since it's only one game). I sincerely doubt this has any noticeable effect on time.

Any time I'm gambling or, even playing for funsies, both cues stay together at all times. So, for guys talking about "sportsmanlike conduct" and all, I get it. However, concerning VNEA rules, is this a foul?


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Years ago I was the referee for a match between Earl Strickland and Steve Lillis. This was about the time the pushout after the break started in tournaments and the rule was you must designate the push prior to pushing. So Earl breaks and gets hooked, I noticed Steve kind of perked up and was watching closely. Then Earl turns and pushes the cue ball about six inches sideways and Steve jumps from his chair and calls a foul. As a referee I had no choice but to rule in Steve's favor due to the rule but it sucked and I've had a pretty low opinion of Steve since. Oh, and Earl quit and forfeited the rest of the tournament and left.
 
In vnea, it has to be playing cue during your opponents turn at the table.


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Thanks for the input, guys. I enjoy reading everyone's angles on the topic.

I will say however, that until I read otherwise in a rule book, I'm probably just going to leave my break cue together for the entire game. While I can't imagine ever calling a forfeit on someone for this situation, I've seen some pretty nitty fouls called. (Laying your cue in the table while you reach for a bridge, anyone?)

Again, thanks for the responses. Hit 'em straight!


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Jimmy_Betmore said:
Thanks for the input, guys. I enjoy reading everyone's angles on the topic.

I will say however, that until I read otherwise in a rule book, I'm probably just going to leave my break cue together for the entire game. While I can't imagine ever calling a forfeit on someone for this situation, I've seen some pretty nitty fouls called. (Laying your cue in the table while you reach for a bridge, anyone?)

Again, thanks for the responses. Hit 'em straight!


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I had a long stretch shot and paused for a second to pull my britches up as to not show the grand canyon. I set cue down and pulled them up. Guy I was playing walked over and took ball in hand saying it was a foul. I couldnt believe it. According to the rules I guess it is but it was also bush league crap.
 
Jimmy_Betmore said:
We all know the the rule concerning breaking down your cue during a match being a forfeit in most (if not all) leagues. And while I understand the need for the rule, I'm curious if I could be called for this for something that I do.

I play in VNEA 8-ball league in Dayton, OH. We play exclusively in bars, most of which, are fairly tight quarters. Because of this, I usually only remove and assemble my break cue when it's my turn to break. If I make a ball on the break, I'll disassemble my break cue, put it back in my case, and then assemble my playing cue and continue with the rack. I only do this in an attempt to minimize the possibility of damage or theft of my cues.

So, is the act of breaking down my break cue a forfeit? I know the "easy" solution is to just leave both cues assembled for the entire game, but if I don't have to, I'd rather not. What are your opinions?

Edited for missing words.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Just saw this happen in our ISPA state tourney a week ago. The opponent called him on it and he said it was his break cue that he broke down. They agreed it wasn't a game-ending foul or forfeit.

I'd just leave your cues alone until the game ends, as that risk is less than giving up the match and pizzing off your teammates, too.

My opinion,

Jeff Livingston
 
If you aren't comfortable leaving your break cue assembled, then you could make it a point to ask your opponent, and his captain, before the match starts, if its ok with them if your just put it away after you break. And that your player will still be assembled.

Of course, if they were real crappy they could tell you yes and still call it, I suppose....
 
frankncali said:
I had a long stretch shot and paused for a second to pull my britches up as to not show the grand canyon. I set cue down and pulled them up. Guy I was playing walked over and took ball in hand saying it was a foul. I couldnt believe it. According to the rules I guess it is but it was also bush league crap.
Click to expand...


In BCA rules, leaving your cue on the table is clearly NOT a foul. Perhaps VNEA has a slightly different rule set, but I wasn't able to find anything in the VNEA rules that says this is a foul. Further, with so many leagues being dual-sanctioned BCA and VNEA, I have a hard time believing that this could be ruled as a foul.

Your opponent "taking" ball in hand seems to be the only foul involved.

I've never played in a VNEA league, so if I am wrong, please correct me.

-Blake



BCA rules, 1-3.1(f):

You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot. You may use your cue and hands to measure angles and distances for bank shots and kick shots. No other cues, bridges or equipment may be used.

http://www.playbca.com/portals/0/rules/general.pdf
 
Interesting and Thanks for the information..

This was a few years back and I was in Ann Arbor. It was what they told me was a BCA rules tournament. I was the out of towner as I usually was ( i traveled for work and would find a little tournament or two).
I thought it was pretty pathetic but what ya going to do.
I never have played VNEA but it has always interested me. People seem to like it.


SloMoHolic said:
In BCA rules, leaving your cue on the table is clearly NOT a foul. Perhaps VNEA has a slightly different rule set, but I wasn't able to find anything in the VNEA rules that says this is a foul. Further, with so many leagues being dual-sanctioned BCA and VNEA, I have a hard time believing that this could be ruled as a foul.

Your opponent "taking" ball in hand seems to be the only foul involved.

I've never played in a VNEA league, so if I am wrong, please correct me.

-Blake



BCA rules, 1-3.1(f):

You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot. You may use your cue and hands to measure angles and distances for bank shots and kick shots. No other cues, bridges or equipment may be used.

http://www.playbca.com/portals/0/rules/general.pdf
Click to expand...
 
frankncali said:
Interesting and Thanks for the information..



This was a few years back and I was in Ann Arbor. It was what they told me was a BCA rules tournament. I was the out of towner as I usually was ( i traveled for work and would find a little tournament or two).

I thought it was pretty pathetic but what ya going to do.

I never have played VNEA but it has always interested me. People seem to like it.
Click to expand...


I'm happy to help. I'm certainly not a ref, but hopefully this will give some folks a little more incentive to challenge a questionable ruling.

Many local leagues reserve the right to adjust the rules, so that's something to be aware of, too.

Anyway, I hope this helps someone someday. :)

-Blake
 
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