Forget design "theft", lets call it inspiration

Michael Webb said:
We could talk about it for hours but the fact is the responsibility will always fall back on the cue maker. It is what it is, It's right on track. I have a whole history section in my personal notes section but that doesn't mean every other cue maker has these notes. Unless the end result to satisfy all parties means a committee is formed and any cue maker will have to submit a draft before he builds a cue. Because of all that has been posted that may be the only solution. Where does it end but then again where does it begin. There may not be a solution at all. And of course the correct answer on my part is WHY THE HELL DID I EVER GET ENVOLVED IN THIS THREAD TO BEGIN WITH. It's not aimed at me so maybe I should just mind my own business.

Mike, no, it's great to hear a cuemaker's input on this matter. It is and unfortunately will remain a very gray area. Bruin's comments also shed some light from an artistic standpoint. Credit needs to be given.

While we like to think that all cuemakers are 'cue artists', the fact is that most have never been trained or educated artistically and come from machinist and woodworking backgrounds. They develop their own styles over time, by trial and error, and yes....by duplicating designs or styles that's been done before. There should never been exact duplication, especially for the purpose of defrauding and forgery. That's where I draw the line.

Sean
 
Michael Webb said:
Sorry James, Your right except for the post you made about one cue being advertised that it hits like another without the wait, As far as design, I agree with both of you. rs
But the inlays shouldn't be copied to go along with certain designs, especially when you know your copying another's design because an email was sent with pictures attached saying can you make this, The first response should be, Do you mind if I change something. If so, GREAT. If not, then you have to weigh how you feel about the future feedback and being labeled as such.

Sorry Mike you don't agree with both of us, but it was a nice try to stay neutral and not post an opinion. That's not the Mike Webb I knew:-(
The fact is Joe see's no problem with the customer who brings a picture of someone else's unique design and saying make me this. You on the other hand seem to want to say you wouldn't do it without changes (how many would be in that grey area that I have trouble with) So in fact you side with me on this. As far as the Hoppe ring goes or simple cues you are buying into Joe's Bullshit spin on what I am representing, it's his version of my thoughts, not MY THOUGHTS. Joe believes that putting a Hoppe ring on a cue or using a Gibson slotted diamond is the same as someone making an exact copy of Mottey's seaworld cue. That's Joe, not JimBo. I guess you missed it so I have to ask again, how would you feel if you made a fancy cue and someone made an exact copy of your unique design? Would you be flattered or mad?


Jim
 
bruin70 said:
first of all, almost all cuemakers aren't artistic or creative enough to be "inspired"....they can merely copy, thinking that replacing a diamond with a snowflake, ebony with snakewood, is inspired thinking. BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS,,,,so let's leave that thought on the backburner.

I disagree with this thought, although the growing number of backyard start up hacks are swaying the numbers a bit. Seems right now anyone with 5K buys a lathe and a book and calls themselves a cue maker. How about if we narrow it down to guys who have a name, guys who have been at it over 15 years, guys who's sole income is cues. I believe there are more artistic people then you give credit for, but knowing it's your field I understand you are a tough grader. I believe tha lack of vision is more on the side of the buyer, and new innovative things cost money, so in the long run being super creative isn't cost effective.

simply put, craft evolves by imitation. the artist who can leapfrog past that trend and build his own is the one who pushes the craft to a different direction. when you start out, you copy. you copy because that is how you learn. there's no way to boldly go where no one has gone before if you don't know where to start. most craftsmen, even the great ones merely copy....yet within their ouvre, they are distinct from one another and hold their own influence, but against the backdrop of history, they're merely part of a larger movement. the artist who changes history comes once every eon. i don't know the history of cue design, but if you want to crown szamboti or ernie that genius, then so be it,,,and everyone else is his legion.

I'm glad you posted this, it's a truth that seems like common sense to me, but I guess many people don't understand it. it's also the reason that Joe's holier then thou BS doesn't float. "find me a cue maker who hasn't copied", Well, as you so clearly pointed out most have due to this reason. Has Jerry McWorter done some SW style knockoffs? Sure, does he do it now? No, Was Jerry Franklin a HUGE influence on him? Yes, but again his work now stands alone, call him and ask for a copy of someone else's design now see what he says.

i consider "theft" a willful use of another's design NOT to improve upon one's own art, but to create a substitute copy, concomitant with that is the usual monetary gain from its sale, or maybe the NON-acknowledgemnet of the origin of inspiration. i hate to bring this up(it is probably the second or third time) but mottey's ripoff a unique ginacue,,,probably at the behest of someone who didn't want to pay ginacue prices,,,and mottey's subsequent use of his copy on the front of his webpage with absolutely no homage to ernie,,,is the paradigmatic example of unabashed thievery.

I could not agree more, yet there are a few who find no problem with it, and one who will pretty much reach for any tiny thread to try and show how the cue wasn't an exact copy, now I know deep down in the bottom of my heart that Joe isn't that dumb, so I write it off as his obsession with me. What I really don't get is why Joe tries to say that cue isn't a copy when all he has to do is back up his original belief that there is nothing wrong with making a copy in the first place? Why say it's not a copy the rings are different? Why not just say sure it's a copy and making a copy is fine with me?

one of the things that blur the distinction as in the case of the szamboti dsign, is the lapse of time. i guess you can say the patent ran out. szam designs have become so iconic, i don't know that "design theft" holds. creative thinking really has many influnces, and it has been posited often that there is no such thing as "original". think of all the suits brought against musicins who have SUPPOSEDLY "stolen" a riff from another song. today, we are so inundated with visuals and ideas, it's hard to say that anyone is truely unique. szam designs are SO elemental, imo, that it is almost impossible to NOT copy. to design something not szam-like would almost require a revolution in cue structure,,,,a cue that looks like a tennis racket maybe:):):)

I posted my thoughts on this in the other thread.

there are those who can address the very nature of things, and everyone really has no choice but to follow. there is a truth about what they have to say that speaks to everyone. such would not be the case of say,,,tad. a great creative spirit,,,but do you see anyone copying him? he is unique but ultimately his designs are affectatous,,,bad word,,,non-elemental, so that it is easy to NOT copy him and almost impossible NOT to copy szam.

i think all those cues in your examples were "influenced by", not "inspired by", as there is nothing inspirational about them.

Once more you back up my point of money driving this idea that it's fine. Seems every thinks copying SW is ok because of the 8 year wait, some want to claim that stealing from them hasn't hurt their business, yet is that really an excuse? People don't steal what doesn't sell, and money seems to create a whole list of excuses as to why it's ok to Steal.

I'd also like to thank you once more for pointing out the Gina/Mottey situation, I like to reference that because it's so obvious and the design is so unique that it really is the poster child of what I am talking about here. Sure others want to continue to speak on plane cues or traditional stuff that's already been knocked off for so many years the lines have been blurred. Nice post Bru, nice to hear an artist chime in.

Jim
 
JimBo,
Regarding impractical- I mean ELEMENTS of the design. If I want ivory windows then I'll have the windows, I'm not going to search around to find out who first put ivory windows on a cue and ask their permission, it's impractical.

Regarding lawnmowers- No that is stealing but if I bought a Ariens mower because it is like my neighbors Snapper,that's my business (By the way they are the same mower to all intents and purposes).

Regarding an exact Gina copy- Asking and recieving permission are the key here. Yes it's probably absurd to think you could get permission but with Ernies 5 or 7 year wait list who knows, he might say yes.

Terry
 
Tbeaux said:
JimBo,
Regarding impractical- I mean ELEMENTS of the design. If I want ivory windows then I'll have the windows, I'm not going to search around to find out who first put ivory windows on a cue and ask their permission, it's impractical.

Again you are falling prey to joe's version of my belief. Just the Ivory Window isn't a cue design, sure it's an element, and just one, now how many others will you *BARROW*? Again please try to think more complex fancier designs, and not taking a window from this cue and a dot from that cue and a diamond from another, think about taking the cue and asking another person to make it with all those elements in the same places and in the same sizes, but wait "can you change the rings at the joint?" Get me now?

Regarding lawnmowers- No that is stealing but if I bought a Ariens mower because it is like my neighbors Snapper,that's my business (By the way they are the same mower to all intents and purposes).

Ok now you are way off track, I'm talking stealing not buying, and in your case you are buying the same unit made by the same person, you can bet your bottom dollar that if a competing company put out the same exact mower they would be in court being sued by Snapper, because they would be the ones stealing. But you know the real reason why? There is money in lawn mowers (cues, not so much).

Regarding an exact Gina copy- Asking and recieving permission are the key here. Yes it's probably absurd to think you could get permission but with Ernies 5 or 7 year wait list who knows, he might say yes.

Terry

More miss information, it's not a shock here but where did you hear about a 7 year wait for a Gina??? I don't believe that to be true at all, but that aside how would a long wait be an excuse to steal??

Jim
 
JimBo said:
More miss information, it's not a shock here but where did you hear about a 7 year wait for a Gina??? I don't believe that to be true at all, but that aside how would a long wait be an excuse to steal??

Jim

I've heard various lengths of time, 5 years seems to be the most prevalent time mentioned.
It's not stealing if he said YES to using his design or even said YES to using major elements of his design.
I'm not promoting theft....however, if someone makes these so called tribute cues and put THEIR OWN name on them it is more like the Parisian artist who makes copies of the Mona Lisa and sits outside the Louve selling them. Maybe it has to do more with if the cuemaker(artist) is dead or alive? Maybe, maybe not. Most people will never be able to afford a Gina or the Mona Lisa....doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to enjoy something close. Imitation is the finest form of flattery, but maybe it requires the artist to be deceased.
This is why I didn't want to give my opinion. I see your points but I also see the other side of the issue. Personally it doesn't matter to me except that I am working on several cue designs using small elements from several cuemakers designs to set off (or highlight) my own design elements and themes. I think they're sort of unique, but what if someone objects.
By the way the cuemakers who I'm using to get these ideas are also the cuemakers that I'd have build the cues,each would be building a cue with some elements from each others work. I don't think they're going to mind.

Terry
 
JimBo said:
Hey John, we aren't talking HIT, let's stick to design and since you're listening/ reading, if you showed up at VF this year and another cuemaker had a cue with an exact copy of your cue 1004 same butt design, how would you feel about it??

Jim
Jim
My point is this: I used to get requests to build a cue (via email) with a picture attached of another cuemakers cue - customer wants cue to look like the picture and then instructions are "make it hit like xx cm". So in addition to the design element my hit isn't even a consideration --- my worth as a cuemaker is a big fat -0-. And no I would not be a happy camper about that cue if its copied.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com
 
Jack Madden said:
Jim
My point is this: I used to get requests to build a cue (via email) with a picture attached of another cuemakers cue - customer wants cue to look like the picture and then instructions are "make it hit like xx cm". So in addition to the design element my hit isn't even a consideration --- my worth as a cuemaker is a big fat -0-. And no I would not be a happy camper about that cue if its copied.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

I understood your point and agree with it, there are others who unfortunatly just want the cash and would do anything to get a sale. One thing I did miss was how would you feel if someone copied your 1004 design:.)

Jim
 
Tbeaux said:
I've heard various lengths of time, 5 years seems to be the most prevalent time mentioned.

I think it's much shorter then that, but I guess it depends on how Ernie feels on the day you call and the cue you want made.

It's not stealing if he said YES to using his design or even said YES to using major elements of his design.

If you ask it isn't stealing, but again this is a new twist that only complicates things, we aren't talking about people asking, specially since many feel it's fine and there is no reason to ask.


I'm not promoting theft....however, if someone makes these so called tribute cues and put THEIR OWN name on them it is more like the Parisian artist who makes copies of the Mona Lisa and sits outside the Louve selling them. Maybe it has to do more with if the cuemaker(artist) is dead or alive? Maybe, maybe not. Most people will never be able to afford a Gina or the Mona Lisa....doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to enjoy something close.

That is what it means, again I want a mansion on the beach, I live in a ranch, I want a Lambo, I drive a Ford, why do you feel cues is an exception? How is it a defense for stealing? If you can't afford a Bushka then you don't get one, seems simple to me.

Imitation is the finest form of flattery,

That's a line often spoken by the people doing the imitations, never from the ones being imitated. Again I want to hear from a cuemaker who has had a design stolen, Mike and John seem to be hell bent on staying neutral, although Mike has already said he would never make a copy.
but maybe it requires the artist to be deceased.

See above.

This is why I didn't want to give my opinion. I see your points but I also see the other side of the issue.

Grey area, I also have them, but it should never stop you from explaining where your line is and why.

Personally it doesn't matter to me except that I am working on several cue designs using small elements from several cuemakers designs to set off (or highlight) my own design elements and themes. I think they're sort of unique, but what if someone objects.

If they are unique I don't see how someone could complain.


By the way the cuemakers who I'm using to get these ideas are also the cuemakers that I'd have build the cues,each would be building a cue with some elements from each others work. I don't think they're going to mind.

Terry

Again I'd say you can't steal from the person if he's doing the cue, so if you use Ginacue inlays and have Ernie build the cue then it's 100% fine, unless of course the cue you got the designs from was an original design made by a customer for a custom order. I can't say enough how I can see grey areas, this is why I like the debate, joe wants my views to be Black and White, but the fact is it's not like that.

Jim
 
JimBo said:
Again I'd say you can't steal from the person if he's doing the cue, so if you use Ginacue inlays and have Ernie build the cue then it's 100% fine, unless of course the cue you got the designs from was an original design made by a customer for a custom order. I can't say enough how I can see grey areas, this is why I like the debate, joe wants my views to be Black and White, but the fact is it's not like that.

Jim


hey jimbo, sign me up for a couple of those tv's.:D

whats your opinion on using say one "element" say you have a 4pt cue with a delrin but cap with 300 inlays...... looks nothing like a boti except 4 gus stlyed peacocks in the points....... copy?

what about if the peacocks are a different form? is that ok?

some of the previous examples you used were bad for me, skips while i did see similar elements i never saw a cue just like them....... and the cockers???? maybee i didnt see the ones your talking about but from the ones ive seen youd have to be a moron to think it was a copy.

as far as neutral i would need the exact definition your talking about.

feelings .... dont know has never happened.

you say a plain 4 pointer wouldnt be a copy.... but what if it was a counterfiet?

also i think you give some credit for something they didnt do!!!!!!!!

and does this also apply to tie's? or is that ok? because that might be the most blatant example " OF DESIGN THEFT IVE EVER SEEN IN THE CUE WORLD " ive ever seen :confused: :eek: :mad: :( :o :confused:

please teach this grass hoper.
 
JimBo said:
I can't say enough how I can see grey areas, this is why I like the debate, joe wants my views to be Black and White, but the fact is it's not like that.

Jim

I don't think it's so much that Joe is saying you don't have gray areas, he is saying that your gray areas change depending on who made the cue. You, also, are consistent with saying that copies or knockoffs are wrong, but your reaction and verbal thrashing of the cuemaker are also not consistent. I happen to agree with these sentiments, but, on the other hand as I've said in the past my "line" changed after being exposed to these types of threads.
 
Jimbo: I'm glad you posted this, it's a truth that seems like common sense to me, but I guess many people don't understand it. it's also the reason that Joe's holier then thou BS doesn't float. "find me a cue maker who hasn't copied", Well, as you so clearly pointed out most have due to this reason. Has Jerry McWorter done some SW style knockoffs? Sure, does he do it now? No, Was Jerry Franklin a HUGE influence on him? Yes, but again his work now stands alone, call him and ask for a copy of someone else's design now see what he says.

So how come when a McFranklin come up for sale you don’t whack him? For making the copy like you do everyone else? He won’t do a knockoff now? Aren’t those Wayne points in one of “his” creations? BTW another opportunity you had to make your point and didn’t.. But now you don't think whats good for the goose is good for the gander.. he probably survived and made the money he needed for his CNC off of these 6 point SW clones, or as they are described as "players cues".

Jimbo: What I really don't get is why Joe tries to say that cue isn't a copy when all he has to do is back up his original belief that there is nothing wrong with making a copy in the first place? Why say it's not a copy the rings are different? Why not just say sure it's a copy and making a copy is fine with me?

Because copy to me means duplicate and we aren’t talking duplicates. If you want to say he copied a part of a cue, that’s fine. If you want to call them knock off’s because of some degree of design borrowing, thats up to you. But you’re right, I don’t have a problem with it for a plethora of reasons.

BTW nice skipping over calling out one of the knockoff Boti design.. my point exactly.

Quite frankly I don't care where you draw the line as far as design theft. But when you only apply it to cuemakers you have no relationship with, thats the problem. And as you can see, I am not the only person who see's that.

This is you in a previous thread where a Phillipine cuemaker took some TW points, copied them, and someone made reference to McWorter also using them. Not only did you not say anything about the Phillipine cuemaker that so blatanly used the design, but you gave McWorter the pass to..

How Jimbo attacks his buddies for borrowing designs “I don't know who Al Bautista is but he seems to have (how should I say) barrowed that point design from Jerry McWorter, who happened to have barrowed it from Thomas Wayne.”

Joe
 
merylane said:
some of the previous examples you used were bad for me, skips while i did see similar elements i never saw a cue just like them....... and the cockers???? maybee i didnt see the ones your talking about but from the ones ive seen youd have to be a moron to think it was a copy.

Ha ha and thats coming from a cuemaker... I think Stevie Wonder could tell them apart. But its easy to say anything you want about them when you either a- don't like them, or b- they ain't giving you nothing for free.

Joe
 
merylane said:
hey jimbo, sign me up for a couple of those tv's.:D

whats your opinion on using say one "element" say you have a 4pt cue with a delrin but cap with 300 inlays...... looks nothing like a boti except 4 gus stlyed peacocks in the points....... copy?

I have trouble explaining where your line should be, it's obvious that barrowing one inlay design is far from most people's line as far as stealing a whole cue design.

what about if the peacocks are a different form? is that ok?

This IMO is the way it should be done, I think some inlays are so unique and can be considered "signature" that they should be reworked a bit to make them your own. Again to me reworking an inlay design would be considered a tribute to the guy who came up with it, exact copying it is stealing. Of course slotted diamonds (made by Gibson or any other outside source) wouldn't be part of it.

some of the previous examples you used were bad for me, skips while i did see similar elements i never saw a cue just like them....... and the cockers???? maybee i didnt see the ones your talking about but from the ones ive seen youd have to be a moron to think it was a copy.

I don't like to group a whole body of work into a group, by that I mean I'd rather judge each cue on it's own and just because a guy makes 1 or 2 copies doesn't mean all of his cues should be burnt. Again this is more of Joe trying to dictate what *I* should believe.

as far as neutral i would need the exact definition your talking about.

feelings .... dont know has never happened.

If it happened, aren't you able to play along? What about if someone made a buddy Hall cue, right down to the inscription in the box??

you say a plain 4 pointer wouldnt be a copy.... but what if it was a counterfiet?

To me this issue has never been about that, it's more of an artistic thing, I think it's obvious that anyone trying to misrepresent a cue is dead wrong, I mean I doubt anyone could defend that practice.

also i think you give some credit for something they didnt do!!!!!!!!

I'm not following this?

and does this also apply to tie's? or is that ok? because that might be the most blatant example " OF DESIGN THEFT IVE EVER SEEN IN THE CUE WORLD " ive ever seen :confused: :eek: :mad: :( :o :confused:

please teach this grass hoper.

I'm not teaching anyone (I'm sure you know this) all I'm doing is putting out an opinion and getting people to se something that may be a problem people don't normally think about. I'm also looking to learn what others think. I would really love to hear what cuemakers think but you guys are all pussies (cat of course) and are afraid to comment. I think a big part of that problem is that a clown like Joe with so much time on his hands will search to no end to find an example of your work where *HE* feels you crossed the line, then you're in a spot where you have to defend yourself and as we know it's not worth the bad PR. As I've said some guys have crossed the line or approached it and that doesn't condemn them for the rest of their careers. Some guys will do things early in their career when they need the work/Money that they would never do once they establish a name/Style. Also as it's already been brought up guys will do different styles and cues while trying to learn the craft. Many grey areas and much to debate, I'm learning as much as the next guy here and I'm just happy to see it out in the spotlight and people talking about it. As I've said before many times I have nothing to gain or lose on this issue.

Jim
 
zeeder said:
I don't think it's so much that Joe is saying you don't have gray areas, he is saying that your gray areas change depending on who made the cue. You, also, are consistent with saying that copies or knockoffs are wrong, but your reaction and verbal thrashing of the cuemaker are also not consistent. I happen to agree with these sentiments, but, on the other hand as I've said in the past my "line" changed after being exposed to these types of threads.

Just your words that you have changed your ways due to this makes it all worth it to me, just one person who may not have thought about it before and has now thought about it means this worked. Even if you read this and decided not to change, at least you think about it.
As far as Joe's claim that I am different depending on the cuemakers is a joke. Sure I was tougher on Coker then Schick and the reason isn't any perceived relationship, it's just the fact that Coker built a name early on as SW style cues, to me it's what put them on the map and what built them up, proof of that is the continual references on e-bay linking the names. I'm not sure if they put it out there or not, but the fact remains something about their work made people link them, it wasn't me it was everyone else. Bill Schick has also done some Szamboti style cues and maybe even a copy or two (I'd judge them on a per cue basis) but his body of work is so extensive that a few cues either way is a small portion of his overall reputation. there is no way to group the two. Again not for me to judge but that's my view on it. The more Coker cues I see now the less SW copies I see and I'm happy, maybe others complained, maybe they have established a big enough name that they moved away from that style, again I don't know how they got the rep or why they are moving away from it, and I don't feel I'm harder on *THEM* then anyone else, I may have been harder on certain examples but I am 100% consistent.

Jim
 
i want to share the thoughts that i use for myself about design and how it pertains to my work. i believe design, in all aspects of creativity, is subjective to the forum in which it is used. my meaning is there are elements though thought first by one that eventually become "standards" for the good of all in an industry. let me explain with a simple example. notice where the radio, air vents, climate controls ect... in your car are placed? the position of these things were at one time thought of by someone as being the best place for their design. these things have become staples in the automotive industry because right now they are the best place for their use by us people. i think there is room for "staples" in the cue world also. there could be allot on the list of "grand fathered" design elements,.. maybe the 4, 6, and 8 pronged cue with or without veneers just about in any configuration, the "southwest" style joint ring work, what we've come to know as the "standard" size joint in any material, the wrap (linen, leather, wood ect...), the rubber bumper, the "hoppe" ring, the single silver joint ring, the "bushka" ring, simple geometric shapes.. (dots, diamonds, any length and width), lines, boxes (veneered or not) ), the standard bushka size delrin butt cap, all joint styles (piloted, flat face, wood thread) as well as all joint pins and a bunch more probably. where all these can pertain to an "indiscretion" is in the "unique" way which these elements are used by cue makers. i find nothing wrong with using some elements of past makers as long as these "elements" are not intended to "pass off" the work as something created by another. now as design elements get more geometrically complicated it becomes easier for me to establish copying. someday some of these more "complicated" elements may join the "grand fathered" list also, maybe even Gus's propeller, peacock or three piece diamond (they're used so much nowadays that it would seem like they're already there), joe gold's "fancy" point and many more from other makers. i spend much time coming up with unique design elements and even though i don't like to admit it, it is "the eye that buys" in most cases. i can fall prey to what i see so i know that there will always be some out there that use this to their advantage. that doesn't mean that all using others elements are intentionally "stealing" but deep down some know that using that element helps their "unrecognized" status and can only be good for the sale of a cue. until elements are accepted as "staples" in the cue making industry unauthorized use of them, by me, only diminishes the impact that the original cue maker intended them to have. these are my thoughts i use for my work alone and are not intended to be the "rule" for anyone else or the industry.
 
JimBo said:
I would really love to hear what cuemakers think but you guys are all pussies (cat of course) and are afraid to comment. I think a big part of that problem is that a clown like Joe with so much time on his hands will search to no end to find an example of your work where *HE* feels you crossed the line, then you're in a spot where you have to defend yourself and as we know it's not worth the bad PR. As I've said some guys have crossed the line or approached it and that doesn't condemn them for the rest of their careers. Some guys will do things early in their career when they need the work/Money that they would never do once they establish a name/Style. Also as it's already been brought up guys will do different styles and cues while trying to learn the craft. Many grey areas and much to debate, I'm learning as much as the next guy here and I'm just happy to see it out in the spotlight and people talking about it. As I've said before many times I have nothing to gain or lose on this issue.

Jim

First, I don't go looking for just any cuemaker that might have treaded. If you noticed, meathead, I only find examples of cues made by your "oh they are so imaginitive they would never do that" speel. When I do, they get a pass, just like now where you are actually defending them by excusing what they did as them needing the money. How do you know the guys doing it now, aren't in the same perdicament? Does that mean when they become "original" you'll never bring them up again? I find that extremely hard to believe. Maybe they get passes if they give you cut rate discounts when you do buy one of their cues, or maybe even if they donate one to the Ct 9 ball tour. Oh thats right, you have nothing to lose or gain on the issue. BTW just so you know your theory on why is garbage, the second Boti copy was made well after the guy was established, but you know that.

Joe
 
skins said:
i want to share the thoughts that i use for myself about design and how it pertains to my work. i believe design, in all aspects of creativity, is subjective to the forum in which it is used. my meaning is there are elements though thought first by one that eventually become "standards" for the good of all in an industry. let me explain with a simple example. notice where the radio, air vents, climate controls ect... in your car are placed? the position of these things were at one time thought of by someone as being the best place for their design. these things have become staples in the automotive industry because right now they are the best place for their use by us people. i think there is room for "staples" in the cue world also. there could be allot on the list of "grand fathered" design elements,.. maybe the 4, 6, and 8 pronged cue with or without veneers just about in any configuration, the "southwest" style joint ring work, what we've come to know as the "standard" size joint in any material, the wrap (linen, leather, wood ect...), the rubber bumper, the "hoppe" ring, the single silver joint ring, the "bushka" ring, simple geometric shapes.. (dots, diamonds, any length and width), lines, boxes (veneered or not) ), the standard bushka size delrin butt cap, all joint styles (piloted, flat face, wood thread) as well as all joint pins and a bunch more probably. where all these can pertain to an "indiscretion" is in the "unique" way which these elements are used by cue makers. i find nothing wrong with using some elements of past makers as long as these "elements" are not intended to "pass off" the work as something created by another. now as design elements get more geometrically complicated it becomes easier for me to establish copying. someday some of these more "complicated" elements may join the "grand fathered" list also, maybe even Gus's propeller, peacock or three piece diamond (they're used so much nowadays that it would seem like they're already there), joe gold's "fancy" point and many more from other makers. i spend much time coming up with unique design elements and even though i don't like to admit it, it is "the eye that buys" in most cases. i can fall prey to what i see so i know that there will always be some out there that use this to their advantage. that doesn't mean that all using others elements are intentionally "stealing" but deep down some know that using that element helps their "unrecognized" status and can only be good for the sale of a cue. until elements are accepted as "staples" in the cue making industry unauthorized use of them, by me, only diminishes the impact that the original cue maker intended them to have. these are my thoughts i use for my work alone and are not intended to be the "rule" for anyone else or the industry.

What do you think of this cue, how close are the inlays to a Cog, IYHO?
http://cgi.ebay.com/BCM-SIERRA-CUE_W0QQitemZ7217296471QQcategoryZ21212QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Joe
 
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