Formats for leagues around the world

[Pin]

Here in the UK, most pool leagues use a simple format where players play one rack (and maybe also a doubles game), and each team’s wins and losses are added up for the final score.

Most leagues have multiple divisions, which tends to separate the better players from the worse players, so skill differences between players aren’t a major problem. (And over one rack, you always have a chance.)

I’ve been looking at the APA system, which is much more complicated, but I can see the benefit of the SL system.

Does America also have many ‘simple’ leagues? It looks like BCA leagues can use whatever format they like. Do they tend to count simple wins and losses?

What about elsewhere in the world? Do many other countries have complex systems?

And whose system is best?

 

[Island Drive]

There are hundreds of leagues here.
Many have NO connection at all to the ones that run nationally.

There is no best system....
Each area has different complainers, mindsets and reasons for their own format/rules.
In the USA, the demographic melting pot of the planet.
Every area has it's freedom to pick and choose, and vote for or not about rules/formats.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Having played in BCA and APA in America, the easiest way to summarize the difference is::

"BCA is a little less stupid than APA."

 

[Pin]

Having played in BCA and APA in America, the easiest way to summarize the difference is::

"BCA is a little less stupid than APA."

How so?

 

[Island Drive]

My response would be.
The APA was formed by professional gamblers thinking about the $$$$$$$.
The BCA was formed more for the game/sport of 8 ball on a bar table.
The APA's founders were Larry Hubbard (Mike Sigels roadman) and Terry Bell a very good semi pro player.
Larry Hubbard was a Top Pro for years.
APA is all about the money and the BCA was more for the players, paying down 40% at the Rivera during the John Lewis years.

 

[ctyhntr]

How so?

I noticed many people commenting have only experience APA 8-ball, and based their opinion solely on that. APA 8-ball is geared towards beginners and intermediates, and likely never experienced APA's other league products such as APA Masters (where everyone plays even up, and jump cues are allowed).

 

[jokrswylde]

Having played in BCA and APA in America, the easiest way to summarize the difference is::

"BCA is a little less stupid than APA."

I know what you are saying, but in reality, the execution of APA is freaking genius if you think about it (See Island's post above).

-I mean minimal overhead and ca$h up front
- a handicapping system that requires as players improve and climb the skill level ranks, they have to either find new players, form new teams, or find new teams themselves. So new team are always being added.
- Focus on playing not in pool halls, but in sports bars. Weekly advertisement to the dart throwers/trivia players that come in nightly.
-Dangle a carrot of "Vegas" in front of teams so they will continue session after session.
- give cheap "reward patches" for run of the mill accomplishments.
- sit back and let the envelopes of cash roll in....

brilliant.

 

[stewie]

I am repeating myself, as there were similar threads: In the US, there are pretty much no divisions of skill. It's all one division, with each player handicapped. Of course, on the very top, you have open tournaments (e.g. nationally the Predator Series, regionally a NE Joss Tour/Tourning Stone). But below that, it's all local efforts running a handicapped league. Many offer to qualify for a National Tournament. For one, the APA, then has skill level divisions at the national tournament. But that looks to my european brain more like a carrot for the lower skills to have some national title to play for. Even their Master's division is local only, I think. But that would be open races for higher skill levels. But I am not sure if you could actually play them as a 2 or 3, as long as you pay their dues. Every season in the APA (~3 months?) is a new attempt from scratch to qualify for the nationals.

What's lacking in the US is a system, where you play in one division and then after a season relegate up or down a level. The lower the division, the more local it is. Within a division it would be even races, lower divisions would have shorter races. That's how any sport in Europe would work. In the US, no sport I know of is working this way.

 

[David in FL]

What's lacking in the US is a system, where you play in one division and then after a season relegate up or down a level.

That's how any sport in Europe would work. In the US, no sport I know of is working this way.

Why is that considered “lacking“.

Perhaps the reason it’s not done here, is because nobody wants to. Just because something is different, doesn’t mean that someone else considers it to be better…

 

[stewie]

Why is that considered “lacking“.

Perhaps the reason it’s not done here, is because nobody wants to. Just because something is different, doesn’t mean that someone else considers it to be better…

Perfectly fine comment. "missing" was the other word I had in mind, but sounds almost the same.

To me, personally, it's lacking. I think it would be beneficial to especially B and A level players (or Fargo 520-650). I think those get bored in APA, if they are a little competitive and they are not strong enough to overcome big handicaps they might give consistently.

 

[Floyd_M]

I am repeating myself, as there were similar threads: In the US, there are pretty much no divisions of skill. It's all one division, with each player handicapped. ...
What's lacking in the US is a system, where you play in one division and then after a season relegate up or down a level. The lower the division, the more local it is. Within a division it would be even races, lower divisions would have shorter races. That's how any sport in Europe would work. In the US, no sport I know of is working this way.

I do agree that moving teams to higher competition IF there's enough players in their local area. It's hard on those who start work early in the morning. I always played those players early.

Back in the whole of 1990s we had enough players to warrant 17 divisions of 15 teams. Each team consisted of 5 players each playing 4 games of BCA 8 Ball. It was a Win/Loss system, no points per ball. Started at 7pm usually finished up around 10pm.
Teams that won their div. several times, moved to a tougher div.. My team was moved a few times & took 1st place 12 in a row.
League operator moved us to his div. thinking his 'packed' team would bring us back down to Earth... ummm nope. He then sent us to Chicago's near S.W. side highest Div., still won but that competition was GREAT!

.

 

[jokrswylde]

Perfectly fine comment. "missing" was the other word I had in mind, but sounds almost the same.

To me, personally, it's lacking. I think it would be beneficial to especially B and A level players (or Fargo 520-650). I think those get bored in APA, if they are a little competitive and they are not strong enough to overcome big handicaps they might give consistently.

In most places, those 520-650 FR players have local tournaments that they play in. A pool hall near me has a weekly Saturday night Tournament that rotates between 8 and 9 ball. There is a fairly local monthly tournament that pays out 5 digits with a calcutta that payed over 30 grand. And that is just in my small corner of the world.

That could be the stronger players here don't care so much about playing leagues. Just an observation on my part.

 

[stewie]

I do agree that moving teams to higher competition IF there's enough players in their local area. It's hard on those who start work early in the morning. I always played those players early.

Back in the whole of 1990s we had enough players to warrant 17 divisions of 15 teams. Each team consisted of 5 players each playing 4 games of BCA 8 Ball. It was a Win/Loss system, no points per ball. Started at 7pm usually finished up around 10pm.
Teams that won their div. several times, moved to a tougher div.. My team was moved a few times & took 1st place 12 in a row.
League operator moved us to his div. thinking his 'packed' team would bring us back down to Earth... ummm nope. He then sent us to Chicago's near S.W. side highest Div., still won but that competition was GREAT!

.

Higher division, being "less local" and more regional, of course, would come with more time spent travelling. In Germany league days were Sundays and not during the week. The better a player is and the more he/she wants to compete even, the more effort/travel is involved.

This is all rooted deeply in culture. In Germany weekend, especially Sundays, are reserved for either Family or your Sport. All sports have their league/match days on Sundays, maybe Saturdays. Here in the US I can see more things happening during the week.

I also grew up with competitive sport only happening in private clubs, not in school. You have to sign up on your own. Youth teams would lead you into senior teams. You can play competitive soccer well into your 30s and never been affiliated with a school or college team. The league system is for clubs. Playing Baseball here in the US, it seems like outside of school or college you either made it to the MLB or play in the park. Not sure if there is anything in between. I never played Baseball, so not sure if this is even a good example.

 

[MitchAlsup]

How so?

BCA is::
BIH when scratch on beak
call all ball and pocket
Jumps allowed
frozen ball another rail
1 game against each opposing team player

APA: when I played it::
BIK when scratch on break
slop counts except for 8-ball
Marker for 8-ball pocket
Jumps allowed only with play cue
frozen ball double kiss to same rail
race to different game counts based on SL rating

 

[hang-the-9]

Here in the UK, most pool leagues use a simple format where players play one rack (and maybe also a doubles game), and each team’s wins and losses are added up for the final score.

Most leagues have multiple divisions, which tends to separate the better players from the worse players, so skill differences between players aren’t a major problem. (And over one rack, you always have a chance.)

I’ve been looking at the APA system, which is much more complicated, but I can see the benefit of the SL system.

Does America also have many ‘simple’ leagues? It looks like BCA leagues can use whatever format they like. Do they tend to count simple wins and losses?

What about elsewhere in the world? Do many other countries have complex systems?

And whose system is best?

If a league was one rack, I would not bother playing in it really. The BCA leagues have similar formats where you play a few games vs every other player on the team, I have seen 3 person teams, everyone plays the other player 2 games, one you break, other game the other player breaks, with 6 total matches per player. The handicap and score is based on wins and also balls left on the table.

 

[stewie]

I have seen 3 person teams, everyone plays the other player 2 games, one you break, other game the other player breaks, with 6 total matches per player. The handicap and score is based on wins and also balls left on the table.

That sounds horrible. You play someone 2 racks, break only one of them and get handicapped for balls left on the table?

In Germany there were tiered cup tournaments besides team leagues. A "county", "district" and then state and national championship for each discipline. The most fun though, was the 8-Ball cup, starting at the state level. Race to 2, double elimination. Could be over very quickly, but you also had a good chance taking out some heavyweights.

 

[Pin]

In Germany there were tiered cup tournaments besides team leagues. A "county", "district" and then state and national championship for each discipline. The most fun though, was the 8-Ball cup, starting at the state level. Race to 2, double elimination. Could be over very quickly, but you also had a good chance taking out some heavyweights.

In Germany, did the local leagues score on racks won and lost?

 

[stewie]

In Germany, did the local leagues score on racks won and lost?

Yes, but there was a tool all games were entered. Standings (-> relegating) was as a team. But they had stats for each player: Win percentage, games played|lost|won and for straight pool they also had the GD, an average balls potted per inning, and High Run. If you watch Ortmann playing straight on youtube from back then, you hear commentators being amazed how and why he tries to keep his run going at any cost. An American would play save to win the game. Germans were tracking their GD all the time.

The races within a league were always even, so no need to ever establish a handicap. Of course, there could be situations where a team is to weak or too strong for a league. The club owns the right to play teams in certain leagues, based on merits from the previous season. So, if a club gets new, better players or some good players leave, they fill teams with whoever they have. Then a team might get crushed every matchday or beats everybody else all the time. But after one season that's supposed to even out. New teams would have to start at the bottom level and might need a few seasons to relegate to the level they actually are.

A matchday in Germany would be on Sunday, 11am, you play one other team 8 times: 2x straight, 3x 8-Ball, 3x 9-Ball, split in 2 halfs. You need 4 players, none is allowed to play the same game twice. I am not sure, but they added 10-Ball and took out 1 8- and 9-Ball, I think.

The higher leagues would bring 3 or 4 teams together on a matchday to cut down travel. The top 3 leagues divisions could take you all across Germany, like NYC to Buffalo or Toronto.

 

[Pin]

Yes, but there was a tool all games were entered. Standings (-> relegating) was as a team. But they had stats for each player: Win percentage, games played|lost|won and for straight pool they also had the GD, an average balls potted per inning, and High Run. If you watch Ortmann playing straight on youtube from back then, you hear commentators being amazed how and why he tries to keep his run going at any cost. An American would play save to win the game. Germans were tracking their GD all the time.

The races within a league were always even, so no need to ever establish a handicap. Of course, there could be situations where a team is to weak or too strong for a league. The club owns the right to play teams in certain leagues, based on merits from the previous season. So, if a club gets new, better players or some good players leave, they fill teams with whoever they have. Then a team might get crushed every matchday or beats everybody else all the time. But after one season that's supposed to even out. New teams would have to start at the bottom level and might need a few seasons to relegate to the level they actually are.

A matchday in Germany would be on Sunday, 11am, you play one other team 8 times: 2x straight, 3x 8-Ball, 3x 9-Ball, split in 2 halfs. You need 4 players, none is allowed to play the same game twice. I am not sure, but they added 10-Ball and took out 1 8- and 9-Ball, I think.

The higher leagues would bring 3 or 4 teams together on a matchday to cut down travel. The top 3 leagues divisions could take you all across Germany, like NYC to Buffalo or Toronto.

Did they have less formal bar-team leagues too, or only the Sunday one?

 

[Fatboy]

That sounds horrible. You play someone 2 racks, break only one of them and get handicapped for balls left on the table?

In Germany there were tiered cup tournaments besides team leagues. A "county", "district" and then state and national championship for each discipline. The most fun though, was the 8-Ball cup, starting at the state level. Race to 2, double elimination. Could be over very quickly, but you also had a good chance taking out some heavyweights.

Germany has a good “”hobby league” system