Foul & Miss scenario

snookerindy1981

snookerindy1981

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The match is into the colors of rotation. Player A leads Player B 55-29 after potting the brown. Player A is corner hooked on the blue; shoots and misses. Is Player B allowed to make Player A shoot from the original spot two more times and if he misses both times the match is awarded to Player B. Or does Player B since behind have to hit from where the cue balls finishes?

I wish I could make heads or tails of the Foul & Miss in the rule book but can't

Thanks for the help in advance.
 
The cue-ball can only be placed back to its original position by the referee (at the request of the non-offending player) if a miss is called. Since there are only 18 points left on the table and Player A is more than 18 points ahead at the time of the foul (and after the 5 points for the foul is taken into consideration), a miss cannot be called (unless the miss was a blatant foul). Therefore, the only options open to Player B in this situation is to either have Player A play the shot from wherever the cue-ball comes to rest or to play the shot himself.

In regards to the frame being awarded after 3 missed attempts, that scenario only comes into play if the striker is able to make full ball central contact with the ball on. If any part of the ball on is obstructed, then there is no limit to the number of attempts that can be made.

Hope this make sense....
 
Isn't there a special rule when the shooter is "angled" (corner hooked) as opposed to "snookered"?
 
In your case, there in no "foul and a miss" situation. So player B's options are to play it where it lies or give it back to player A where it lies.

The rules are different for professionals and amateurs. Professionally, the "foul and a miss" is called entirely at the discretion of the referee if he feels the player did not make a bona fide effort to make contact even if the snooker is particularly harsh. For us normal amateur people, a "foul and a miss" can ONLY occur if a ball on (or could be on) is available for full, direct contact, i.e., you could theoretically shoot the center of your cue ball through the center of a legal object ball--then you fail to contact anyway, either by flubbing the shot such as completely missing a very thin cut, or by choosing to play indirectly off of a cushion and missing contact. Since player B is hooked, full direct contact is not possible so the attempt must be made off a cushion or via swerve, therefore a "foul and a miss" may not be called at the amateur level.

To explain "ball on (or could be on)": for instance, if you shoot a red in a black corner so now you are on color and the white ends up between the pack of reds and the black on spot. You can see black DIRECTLY (but you can't pot it). If you nominate yellow, go off the cushion, and miss, that is a foul and a miss because the black COULD BE ON and you chose instead to play away from it to yellow.
 
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mbvl said:
Isn't there a special rule when the shooter is "angled" (corner hooked) as opposed to "snookered"?
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I think that you cannot be snookered by a cushion and so a free ball cannot be awarded when a foul leaves you angled.
 
Bob is correct. If you cannot hitthe ball on because the cue ball is tight in the jaws of a pocket, then you are "obstructed", not snookered - and a free ball can only be awarded if you are snookered.
 
I agree with Bob and Neil but that is a bit confusing to the matter at hand. Here, we are talking about a "foul and a miss" situation".....Bob and Neil are referring to a possible "free ball" situation--completely different subject.

About the angling/free ball issue that Bob and Neil are philosophizing about, here are my two cents:

I glanced through the rules quickly (as if that is actually possible) but could not find exactly what I was looking for. However, according to my memory, if player A commits a foul and leaves the cue ball "angled" (that is, obstructed by the cushion) then player B has three options: 1) play it as it lies (not likely but possible), 2) have player A play it as it lies (may not want to do that if the object ball is sitting in the jaws of another pocket), or 3) (and this is the strange part not seen anywhere else in the rules, if only I could find it) player B MAY PLAY WITH CUE BALL IN HAND FROM THE "D" same as if the white had gone in off. It is important to note that if the white ball is left ANGLED on the object ball, there is no free ball awarded.
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Other important things to note, in any possible free ball scenarios, when the cue ball is either snookered or angled so that it is not possible to strike the ball on (object ball) directly, one must define what is the actual "snookering" (or "angling") entity. Specifically, if a player nominates a "free ball", it would then be a foul to snooker the opponent BEHIND that nominated free ball (for instance, to nominate the GREEN as free ball in place of RED, then to just roll up behind GREEN to block all the reds from the opponent is a foul. However, it is perfectly legal to nominate green, strike it, then leave the cue ball snookered behind BROWN even if the green then rolls forward to stop in the same line effectively acting as a second snookering ball, but, by definition, the BROWN is considered to be the snookering ball (since it is closest to the white in the line to the ball on) so the stroke is legal. As for angling, I doubt that it is physically possible for a "snookering" ball to be closer to the cue ball than the cushion, therefore, if the incoming player is angled, it is (by definition) impossible to say that he is also snookered because the white is CLOSEST (in a straight line to the ball on) to the angling entity (the cushion). To continue the above sample situation.....if a player nominates GREEN (which is very close to the green pocket) as the free ball, taps it, then leaves the white "angled" on all the reds in the jaws of the green pocket, but also "snookered" behind the green, then there is no foul--the white ball is "angled", and so TECHNICALLY, not "snookered" behind green.

WHEW! It's no wonder that SnookerIndy can't make heads or tails of some of the rules!
 
snookerindy1981 said:
The match is into the colors of rotation. Player A leads Player B 55-29 after potting the brown. Player A is corner hooked on the blue; shoots and misses. Is Player B allowed to make Player A shoot from the original spot two more times and if he misses both times the match is awarded to Player B. Or does Player B since behind have to hit from where the cue balls finishes?

I wish I could make heads or tails of the Foul & Miss in the rule book but can't

Thanks for the help in advance.
Click to expand...

The 'miss' rule will not be applied in this situation....
..player A has a 26 point lead with 18 points on the table.
The 'miss' rule is there so a player can't foul to his advantage....there is
no reason for player A to miss because his opponent needs 2 snookers.

The only options player B has is to 'shoot' or say 'shoot again'.
 
neilallison said:
acesinc.... There is certainly no provision in the WPBSA rules to allow the non-offending player to play from in-hand.
Click to expand...

No doubt you are correct. Alas, my talent on the baize Would belie my aspirations. I am far from professional. My bible for these matters is a dog eared copy of the rules way back from the Billiards and Snooker Control Council days in 1988 when I learned the game. And so it remains dear to me.

From Section 2. Definitions, 16. Angled - "...if angled after a foul, (b) the referee shall state angled ball, and (c) it may be played from in-hand at the striker's discretion."
A previous definition of course defines that "in hand" means that the white is played from within the confines of the "D".

Perhaps that rule has gone the way of the dinosaurs then. I couldn't even find that the term "angled" is defined in the WPBSA rule book. The closest it seems to come is in the same Section 2., 16. (e) "The cue-ball cannot be snookered by a cushion." As someone has wisely stated, "The only constant is change."
 
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