Foul or No Foul??

jsp said:
Any more opinions? Bumping up for the regular weekday crowd.

I'm not completely positive he fouled or not, but judging just from the way he hit the ball and where the CB ended up, it seems as if he did double hit the CB.

Though, now I'm not sure if he just slightly jumped the ball the CB off the table, and that the CB was in mid-air when it contacted the 5 and then the 7, resulting in the peculiar CB position and spin.
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There's no way this could have been a double-hit. Rewind the video to 7:35, and see a side-view of the layout. The cue ball is a solid 5-6 inches from the 5 ball. Then watch his stroke. Due to the elevation, his cue only follows through 2 inches AT MOST. There's no possibility of a double-hit, which the ref could clearly see from her lateral view of the shot.

I think what jsp said above is what happened. The CB hit the 5 slightly airborne, therefore hopping onto the 7 from 1/2" or so above the slate, which explains the seemingly odd finishing position of the CB off the 7. Watching it again with that explanation in mind, the CB's motion looks very natural.

-Andrew
 
How can it be a double hit ? He's bridged off the rail and the OB is like 6 inches away from the CB ?
 
There was no double hit. Watch the video closely, you will see that he uses top left english, as you can see since it's a Measles cue ball. After contact of course the cueballs "look" is going to change, it hits the five then the seven, losing a lot of english and roll. NO FOUL. If you think it's a foul, watch it again.
 
Double hit

I clicked through using the play/pause method and was fortunate to catch it as the cue ball was drawing back and would not have hit the 7, his follow through hit the cue ball a second time pushing it into the 7.

I tried several more times but could not get it to stop at the right frame.:( I believe if someone were to download the clip and play it frame by frame, it would confirm what I saw.

Steve
 
so your telling me, at least 6 inches away from the object ball, he double hits the cue ball, but the ref and announcers and the opponent doesn't see it. right......
 
TrackKing said:
so your telling me, at least 6 inches away from the object ball, he double hits the cue ball, but the ref and announcers and the opponent doesn't see it. right......
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If this is directed to me, I guess that is what I am saying.

The responders to this thread can not all come to the same conclusion, even after watching it several times and even in some what slow motion. With this being the case I can easily how it could be missed watching it live and in person.

Watch it frame by frame and I believe you will see that it was a double hit.

Steve
 
sde said:
The responders to this thread can not all come to the same conclusion, even after watching it several times and even in some what slow motion. With this being the case I can easily how it could be missed watching it live and in person.

Watch it frame by frame and I believe you will see that it was a double hit.

Steve
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The responders are all seeing it from a straight-on, and hence very deceptive angle. Given the distance between the cueball and the object ball, no one watching this live could have missed it if he followed through that far and double hit the cueball.

I can see how watching this shot from the straight-on angle where the cue tip and follow through are largely hidden from view could lead a inexperienced player to believe it was a double hit, but I think knowledgeable players will know that it was not.
 
As I said as well , think about it logically.

The CB is an inch off the rail ,

He's jacked up on the rail 45*-ish,

The OB ball is at least 6 inches away,

He follows thru 'maybe' 2" or less directly at the table. You can even see that he doesn't make it to the table with his cue tip as it's he makes a fairly easy stroke.

Seems like a simple answer to me but maybe I see it wrong. :)
 
PoolBum said:
The responders are all seeing it from a straight-on, and hence very deceptive angle. Given the distance between the cueball and the object ball, no one watching this live could have missed it if he followed through that far and double hit the cueball.

I can see how watching this shot from the straight-on angle where the cue tip and follow through are largely hidden from view could lead a inexperienced player to believe it was a double hit, but I think knowledgeable players will know that it was not.
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I may not be an A player but I am not inexperienced and I KNOW what I saw when I happened to get lucky and stopped the action at exactly the right frame.

Also, if you watch the cue tip and see how much of a follow through, to his right there is leads me to believe that it is a double hit.

Please watch it frame by frame and prove me wrong.

Steve
 
RRfireblade said:
As I said as well , think about it logically.

The CB is an inch off the rail ,

He's jacked up on the rail 45*-ish,

The OB ball is at least 6 inches away,

He follows thru 'maybe' 2" or less directly at the table. You can even see that he doesn't make it to the table with his cue tip as it's he makes a fairly easy stroke.

Seems like a simple answer to me but maybe I see it wrong. :)
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I agree with your analysis. The ball was too far away, and he was jacked up to much to easily get a foul. I think the cue ball would have gone a lot farther if he had fouled it. The cue ball would surely have hit the second ball before the cue stick caught up with it considering the separation between cue ball and object ball.

Deceptive angle.
 
sde said:
I may not be an A player but I am not inexperienced and I KNOW what I saw when I happened to get lucky and stopped the action at exactly the right frame.

Also, if you watch the cue tip and see how much of a follow through, to his right there is leads me to believe that it is a double hit.

Please watch it frame by frame and prove me wrong.

Steve
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If it was a double hit why do you think no one watching it live--who could see the shot from all angles and clearly were in a much better position to judge than we are watching it on video from an angle where the cue tip and follow through are obstructed from view--thought it was a foul, or even brought up the possibility that it was a foul? Not the players, not the referee, not the announcers, and not the audience.
 
Haven't noticed it was 6" away. I thought it was closer. If it was closer, I would call it a foul. It's said in the WPA-rules, if it's close like a chalk length away, it's a foul when the CB follow thru more than a half ball.
 
PoolBum said:
If it was a double hit why do you think no one watching it live--who could see the shot from all angles and clearly were in a much better position to judge than we are watching it on video from an angle where the cue tip and follow through are obstructed from view--thought it was a foul, or even brought up the possibility that it was a foul? Not the players, not the referee, not the announcers, and not the audience.
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Please do not read any disrespect into my words because none is intended.

Actually I agreed with what you are saying, but after seeing what I saw in that ONE stopped frame, I can not agree. I myself being less skilled (not inexperienced) have fouled on a shot very similar and it was not noticed by anyone but me, because of how quickly it happened. btw I called a foul on myself and it surprised everyone.

It is possible that what I saw was an illusion due to the poor angle to judge by, but I am at over 90% in believing it was a double hit.

Steve
 
Someone please download this clip

and watch it frame by frame and confirm what I have been saying.

If I knew how I would do it myself and post screen captures.

Steve
 
sde said:
and watch it frame by frame and confirm what I have been saying.

If I knew how I would do it myself and post screen captures.

Steve
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Honestly, you need to realize that the frame-by-frame, given the quality of a single frame of a youtube vid, and from the angle the camera was looking, is not going to tell you anything conclusive. Instead, consider the distances.

In the previous camera angle (before he gets down on the shot), it's more than clear how far the OB is from the CB, and it's 5-6 inches, conservatively.

Now watch his cue tip as he makes the shot. Can you honestly tell me there's ANY chance that tip went 6 inches or more past the point of contact? He follows through down into the cloth, 2" at the absolute maximum. The CB hops after contact with the 5, and from this angle it may appear that the trajectory it takes involves a double-hit, but there's just no way his tip could possibly be in a position to make that second hit.

Watch the tip as it comes to a stop after contact. There's just no way it went 6".

-Andrew
 
With all due respect...

I managed to stop the action again at the correct frame, the 5 ball had traveled several inches and the cue ball was clearly being drawn back and was behind the 7 ball and 7 ball had not moved.

It is clear to see when stopped on the correct frame.

Steve
 
sde said:
I managed to stop the action again at the correct frame, the 5 ball had traveled several inches and the cue ball was clearly being drawn back and was behind the 7 ball and 7 ball had not moved.

It is clear to see when stopped on the correct frame.

Steve
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Thanks for the detective work. ;)

That's what I originally thought happened. Not that Dennis followed through with his cue a full 6'', but that he probably didn't get his cue away fast enough as the CB started to draw back. 3'' of follow through plus 3'' of CB draw can equal double hit.

Assuming the ball never did hop, how could he jack up so much and have the CB move forward? Now that is illogical.

As I said before, the only other explanation is that he unintentionally jumped the CB off the playing surface which caused the bizarre CB behavior.

I'm still not completely certain he fouled or not, but my best guess is that he did.
 
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jsp said:
Thanks for the detective work. ;)

That's what I originally thought happened. Not that Dennis followed through with his cue a full 6'', but that he probably didn't get his cue away fast enough as the CB started to draw back. 3'' of follow through plus 3'' of CB draw can equal double hit.

Assuming the ball never did hop, how could he jack up so much and have the CB move forward? Now that is illogical.

As I said before, the only other explanation is that he unintentionally jumped the CB off the playing surface which caused the bizarre CB behavior.

I'm still not completely certain he fouled or not, but my best guess is that he did.
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I am not finished with this quite yet. I am going to learn how to download that clip and watch it frame by frame and get rid of that 10% of doubt that I have.

If there is anything worse for me than being wrong, it is being wrong when I think that I am right.

Time for work, I'm otta here.

Steve
 
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