Frozen Cue Ball and Object Ball - Double Hit?

Njhustler1

Njhustler1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I run the straight pool league in my local pool hall and we're having disagreements over whether or not its a double-hit foul if you shoot directly into the cue ball when its frozen to another ball.

See the 3 minutes, 14 second point of this video for an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucYnbbt6q_I.

the video creator says its a good hit, but I don't know what sort of authority they are so I'd like to get some more input.

Lemme know your thoughts. thanks!
 
Legal shot.

6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made.
However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball. (Even though it may be legal to shoot towards such a touching or “frozen” ball, care must be taken not to violate the rules in the first paragraph if there are additional balls close by.)
The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot. Playing away from a frozen ball does not constitute having hit that ball unless specified in the rules of the game.
 
It's funny that this shot brings so much controversy while miscuing under the CB is never called as a foul while the ferrule clearly is touching the CB.

I dunno, I think these kinds of things shouldn't be called.

I've always liked what I remember Grady Mathews saying is the way to handle the situation. He said so long as the cue ball shows "character" and doesn't pass out the OB it shouldn't be a foul.
 
I have noticed myself double hitting a few times lately. Most of the time I can hear the double hit. Grady is right, when the CB does unnatural things you know its a double hit. How about jacking up the cue and hitting down on the CB like a semi masse shot? Without a high speed camera I can't tell if its legal or not. I hit a shot at the bar a while back, but I remember it becuase the CB and OB were frozen together. It was lined up dead straight w/ the pocket so I jacked up and hit it in. The CB went forward about 2 feet and came spinning to a stop. I was playing a fairly good player so I didn't want to intentionally double hit. He didn't say anything so I just ran out :smile:
 
Mike Page's info on frozen ball and double-hit situations

Njhustler1 said:
I run the straight pool league in my local pool hall and we're having disagreements over whether or not its a double-hit foul if you shoot directly into the cue ball when its frozen to another ball.

See the 3 minutes, 14 second point of this video for an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucYnbbt6q_I.

the video creator says its a good hit, but I don't know what sort of authority they are so I'd like to get some more input.

Lemme know your thoughts. thanks!
Click to expand...

There's also this great video from Mike Page that describes this situation:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rip8xwobksc

IMHO, if you use a normal stroke to stroke through the cue ball when it's declared "frozen" to an object ball, and you hear a "click" in the process, that cue ball wasn't really frozen to the object ball. One should only hear a "thud" or "thump" type sound from the cue tip hitting the cue ball; there should be no sound when the cue ball transmits its forward motion to the object ball.

Unfortunately, in Mike Page's video, those balls are not frozen in his demonstrations, and thus one hears the tell-tale "click" as the tiny gap between the cue ball and the object ball is suddenly closed. There should be no sound like this a true frozen ball situation.

For several years when I ran the leagues over at the Danbury, CT, branch of Boston Billiards (which is now closed/defunct), when I got called over to judge a hit like this, I would "listen" intently, and if I heard that tell-tale "click" between the cue ball and the object ball, I'd call a double-hit foul.

Hope this helps,
-Sean
 
3andstop said:
It's funny that this shot brings so much controversy while miscuing under the CB is never called as a foul while the ferrule clearly is touching the CB.
Click to expand...

thanks everyone for their input. the quote above has led me to decide that in our amateur league, we're not going to allow the type of shot that i described above. we don't exactly enforce all the rules as the pros would as it stands now (i.e. accidentally knocking another ball on the table with your arm/shirt/cue stick/etc… just results in letting the opponent decide to move the ball back or leave where it is)

also, it's just too difficult for us to examine the shot that closely and make a proper determination of whether or not the cue tip hit the cueball twice. Which is very likely to happen. The league participants are not trained refs and it takes a trained refs eye to determine whether or not this happens. With our current rule in place, that you cannot shoot this shot, everything is cut and dry and all arguments avoided.

so let it be written...so let it be done!!! :grin:
 
if i remember correctly, robert byrne recommends in his book, shooting directly into the frozen balls. with low, center or high hit. i have tried this but i always feel like i get a double hit on the cue. maybe i'll write byrne and ask for clarification.

on edit: byrne's book recommends shooting with low on frozen balls using speed to control cue position.

bob: what say you?
 
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here it is: on page 76 of Robert Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards he addresses shooting at an object ball frozen to the cue ball. shoot softly with low english and it does NOT double hit and foul. i just tried it on my table. i'd post a pic of the page but copyright infringement prohibits me.
 
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sausage said:
here it is: on page 76 of Robert Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards he addresses shooting at an object ball frozen to the cue ball. shoot softly with low english and it does NOT double hit and foul. i just tried it on my table. i'd post a pic of the page but copyright infringement prohibits me.
Click to expand...
Actually, a pic of the page in this case would be fair use, IMNSHO. The rules specifically address frozen ball situations. What Byrne said does apply to the current rules.

As for making up special rule sets for leagues, I think that's a horrible mistake. One point of playing in competition is learn the rules of the game. I think League Operators who wander off into the weeds of "dumbed-down rules" do their players a disservice.
 
One point of any league system is to help players learn standardized rules

Bob Jewett said:
Actually, a pic of the page in this case would be fair use, IMNSHO. The rules specifically address frozen ball situations. What Byrne said does apply to the current rules.

As for making up special rule sets for leagues, I think that's a horrible mistake. One point of playing in competition is learn the rules of the game. I think League Operators who wander off into the weeds of "dumbed-down rules" do their players a disservice.
Click to expand...

Probably the most succinct (and best stated) post I've read on this "customized rules" topic in a very long time. It amazes me every time I hear how a certain league chose not to honor a long-standing, time-honored, tried/tested/true world standardized rule because the league coordinator "thinks" the rule is either unenforceable, confusing (which is most likely because he/she him/herself is not understanding the rule), or will result in "arguments" amongst the players.

Three years prior to its closing, when I took over running the Boston Billiards league at the now-closed/-defunct Danbury, CT branch, I thought their "customized rule" about frozen balls having to be shot at with a 45-degree (or greater) elevated cue, and then the cue ball having to be verified that it did not travel into the space of the object ball, was the most ludicrous "rule customization" I ever heard. Especially when: 1.) World Standardized rules specifically state the shooter can shoot through the frozen ball situation using a normal stroke, and 2.) this "rule customization" actually ignores the fact that a serious foul can occur when playing that shot with the highly elevated cue -- that the shooter, focusing on making sure the cue ball doesn't travel into the space formerly occupied by the object ball, can either bounce or draw the cue ball onto the ferrule of the cue, which head-spinningly enough, wasn't a foul by their standards! (They considered it an "accident in the course of observing the 'no object ball zone entry' rule." <shakes head>)

The first thing I did was to toss this, and other silly rule customizations, out the front door skidding on the seat of their pants. I believed then as Bob states; one of the points of any league is to learn the rules of the game, as written in any standardized rule book. During each league session kickoff meeting with all the players, I had an easel with diagrams of various shot situations, some legal shots, some fouls, and even demonstrated some on a nearby table. I made sure all players knew the rules as written. And I had the BCA rule book with me at all times, in addition to the printed copy of the league rules. Every time a new player joined during the short open window of the start of the league session, I did the same presentation to him/her.

After Boston Billiards decided to close the Danbury, CT branch, I had several ex-Boston Billiard league players come to me, after they'd played in other leagues for a while, stating how screwed-up that particular league's rules are (giving me examples, resulting in both of us shaking our heads and laughing), and how they missed playing in what they all-too-kindly called "a real league with real rules." And this is the legacy that, as a ex-league coordinator, I'm proud of the most. I would think that's something league coordinators strive for, no?

-Sean
 
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bob: to my recollection the copyright infringement notice in the book said something to the effect of: " nothing from these pages shall be reproduced in any fashion lest goons be summoned in the wee hours to break body parts that you never knew you had." :eek: if you know robert's phone number please give him a call and see if it's ok.
 
Njhustler1 said:
thanks everyone for their input. the quote above has led me to decide that in our amateur league, we're not going to allow the type of shot that i described above. we don't exactly enforce all the rules as the pros would as it stands now (i.e. accidentally knocking another ball on the table with your arm/shirt/cue stick/etc… just results in letting the opponent decide to move the ball back or leave where it is)

also, it's just too difficult for us to examine the shot that closely and make a proper determination of whether or not the cue tip hit the cueball twice. Which is very likely to happen. The league participants are not trained refs and it takes a trained refs eye to determine whether or not this happens. With our current rule in place, that you cannot shoot this shot, everything is cut and dry and all arguments avoided.

so let it be written...so let it be done!!! :grin:
Click to expand...

You also have people in your league who don't know what to do when the last object ball is in the kitchen and the cue ball is in the rack! Let's stick to the rules as written- the frozen cueball/object ball situation isn't really that complicated: If they're frozen, the shooter is allowed a normal stroke and it's not a foul.

cue-ball foul only is fairly standard in non-refereed events.

Incidentally, the person in the video *is* an authority, being one of the people who wrote them for the WPA.
 
listen fred, if that is your real name. one more smart alack remark like that and i'm gonna raise your handicap! :smilewinkgrin:
 
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