Oh so not only using Jay's name for the case he is copying his business model also... gotta hand it to him great at taking someone elses ideal and making it his own.
JV
FS: Thomas, Fellini, and a REAL J Flowers
- Thread starter classiccues
- Start date
Oh so not only using Jay's name for the case he is copying his business model also... gotta hand it to him great at taking someone elses ideal and making it his own.
JV
Is that so? It's my impression that John's his own in-house designer and inventor. He certainly appears to know each and every detail of his stuff inside out. Unlike a certain someone I remember. Hence the comparison fails.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
Well I don't know what Mr. Flowers did or knew.. but he did market cases with his "brand" on them and apparently wasn't making them.
JV
Judging from his knowledge of what Jay sold, one must wonder if he designed them, however - that was my point. John Barton I've never met, but it sure appears he's the designer and inventor of this and a number of other brands. I mean, seriously now, would you bet on it that Giorgio Armani is able to thread a needle?
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
Its kinda funny you have the FLOWERS case gallery and not the correct
J.EF gallery on YOUR website. Is this correct? The word semantics are not
very becoming.
As stated earlier, everyone KNEW what case he was referring to, so whats the harm? Do you not want people to know his full name and not just the
initials. I could not believe someone that wants to honor his legacy would want that.
This would be a shame if we can not say the name of the guy that manufactured these cases. Just to make sure, his name was Jay Flowers. Right?
J.EF gallery on YOUR website. Is this correct? The word semantics are not
very becoming.
As stated earlier, everyone KNEW what case he was referring to, so whats the harm? Do you not want people to know his full name and not just the
initials. I could not believe someone that wants to honor his legacy would want that.
This would be a shame if we can not say the name of the guy that manufactured these cases. Just to make sure, his name was Jay Flowers. Right?
Since you want to go there.
This is the link to my website on the subject: http://www.jbcases.com/jflowers.html
The cases were commonly called "Flowers" cases. But Jay Flowers himself didn't advertise them as such. Kinda like when people call my case a Barton case. It's not. That's not the brand I chose to use.
The history of the cases as we know it is laid out on my site and I have a link to Chris Tate's website. So don't try and paint this as me trying to deceive anyone. Quite the opposite. I am shining a spotlight on their contribution to case making and showing people their work and our work that honors their work.
Here is a link to my image gallery of other case makers: http://www.jbcases.com/gallery/index.php?g2_itemId=9833
In it the Album containing pictures of Jay and Nora's cases is labeled CLEARLY Jay Flowers - J.EF Q Cases.
What is it truly Joe? Why don't you tell us all?
Go on. We are waiting. I am waiting for you make me regret something as you said I would.
To paraphrase JCIN, you sell old pieces of wood and I sell pieces of cowhide, neither of us is saving the world, get over yourself. Just because life didn't give you the opportunity to live abroad doesn't make you a patriot. You don't even know what patriot means because you want to distort the meaning of the Constitution and brand everyone who leaves the shores of America into traitors. You have no problem selling your cues to anyone around the world but you tell everyone in America to "buy American" or they are traitors.
So I am waiting for you to tell me and all of all why I am truly here? Go ahead.
And his brand was J.EF Q Cases.
Which you should have known as an expert in the field of old billiard cues. You are an expert aren't you? Or is it just your boss who is the expert and you hop to it to list stuff for sale when you are told to?
Should you be listing Mark's phone number so that people interested in things you post can get the right information from him since it appears that you don't care to put in the work to inform viewers correctly?
The more you speak the more I believe that you honestly don't remember all that you have said and done on these forums.
And what about the people NOT in the "inner circle". The fact is that you used the WRONG brand to make your statement and I gently corrected you and complimented Mark's cases and you flew off the handle.
My refusal to set up shop? When have I refused to set up shop in the USA? See Joe you can't even see the silliness of your arguments. #1 I had a shop in Colorado. Several members of AZ can testify to that as they either worked for me or visited me in my shop.
I also had a shop in Dover Arkansas as several other members of AZ can testify to.
I started to build cases again here in my apartment with no idea where it would go, if it would be over after a few cases or not. Has nothing to do with "money" Joe and only with my desire to make cue cases. You have no clue about me and apparently little clue about being in business.
I have not refused to set up shop anywhere. I set up shop wherever I want to when I want to for reasons that are not driven by money. I will take this wherever you want Joe. If you are going to brand me a traitor then let's have the discussion.
Two subjects here: Name association and copying.
Name association: Brands take names from dead people all the time to be associated with that person's reputation. Ever heard of the Franklin Press? Do you think that people are running around now thinking that this is the directly descended business stemming from Ben Franklin's printing business?
Of course I chose the name J.Flowers to be associated with the J.EF Q Cases. For the reason I stated and none other. I did not NEED to use it in order to sell more cases. I did it to preserve the name and stop anyone else from taking it. You could spend five minutes educating yourself on trademark law to understand this.
Copying: Fellini? Really? Well first of all Fellini wasn't the most popular case ever and neither were the Jay Flowers J.EF Q Cases. So get your history right. The most popular cases ever have been Joe Porper, It's George and Instroke.
But since you want to use Fellini, let's do a little bit of a reality check and educate everyone. You already should know this since you are supposedly an expert but this is for the audience.
The first person to make a slip cover case using extruded plastic tubes for pool with upholstered ends was Harvey Martin. After that the style you refer to NOW as Fellini was done by Ernie Gutierezz. Ernie built a Gina case that was COPIED by Fellini. Viking may have also predated Fellini with this style. Then after Fellini we had Ann Gore, Centennial, It's George, Kelli, Engles, Ron Thomas, McDermott, Schon all making this style of case.
Then after all of them comes me. I make a sincere attempt to improve the style and make a case that looks similar but is vastly better. Not just my opinion but the actual technical truth based on side by side comparisons with many of the above mentioned brands.
So it's a stretch to call our incarnation of this style, which started with Harvey Martin in the 40s, a copy. Not that it stops you from attempting to do so as you grasp for anything to try and put me down.
So if you want to label me a copier then please find an actual example of something I copied and didn't improve on to come up with a new product.
As for my motivation Joe. If I were motivated by money then I would not me here typing this. I'd be doing something to make more money. Taking the time to put up the counter arguments to your nonsense only causes some people to feel sorry for you and dislike me even more. I am sure that in a few more posts SOMEONE will type in how much they hate me and swear to never buy from me.
You can spin your "intention" all you want to but I firmly believe that you worded the title the way you did in order to taunt me. If not then the alternative is to believe that you are not a very knowledgeable expert or you just don't care enough about prospective buyers to give them the proper information. I do, and I did.
This is my workshop: http://www.jbcases.com/gallery/index.php?g2_itemId=12448
This is my desk -
This is me holding a case I built in 1992 -
These are some of the cases I have to learn from:
This is my wall of experiments:
Which leads to this variety of cases:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3187454#post3187454
So if you think that all this is simply just me taking orders and tossing it into a bin with a cue case popping out at some point then I have to revise my formerly high opinion of your intelligence level and consider you to be quite incapable of rational thought. That you would attempt to insult me with 3rd grade level taunts, i.e. baseless and fact-less ones, shows me that you are firmly mired in some dimension that the rest of us don't live in.
I thought you were just being willfully tactless. Now I understand that you can't help it.
So Mr. Old Pool Cue "expert",
Next time you need to know something about cases before you post them for sale why don't you ask this woman first, she knows more about cases than you ever will.
Also Joe,
Here is the earliest ad I have for the J.EF Q Case. It is from 1985 Accu-Stats magazine.
Notice that this clearly hand drawn advertisement states clearly in the FIRST LINE that the J.EF Q Cases are being presented.
If I listed a Balner Palmer cue for sale with the title "real Palmer America" then I would hope that you would come in and make the distinction between Palmer cues made by Eugene Balner and those made in Taiwan/China under the name Palmer.
After all you are the supposed to be an expert on Palmer cues right? I would sincerely hope that you would have the wherewithal to correct my mistake and allow me the opportunity to reconcile my mistake with my intention.
This logic might be lost on you but I have hope for you anyway.
Here is the earliest ad I have for the J.EF Q Case. It is from 1985 Accu-Stats magazine.
Notice that this clearly hand drawn advertisement states clearly in the FIRST LINE that the J.EF Q Cases are being presented.
If I listed a Balner Palmer cue for sale with the title "real Palmer America" then I would hope that you would come in and make the distinction between Palmer cues made by Eugene Balner and those made in Taiwan/China under the name Palmer.
After all you are the supposed to be an expert on Palmer cues right? I would sincerely hope that you would have the wherewithal to correct my mistake and allow me the opportunity to reconcile my mistake with my intention.
This logic might be lost on you but I have hope for you anyway.
One More:
I am sorry that you don't respect history enough to learn the proper names of the items you sell. But in any event you can clearly see what Jay Flowers himself wanted to call his cases.
In closing I REALLY HOPE that you sell this case. It is a fine example and very rare. If you want to continue to insult me go ahead. I will let you have the last shot since this is your thread. I think everyone got my point in the first post I made and they understand that I wasn't putting you down.
Please don't bother to be nice to me at Valley Forge. I'd rather that you just show the courage to insult me and my family in person as you feel free to do here. Just call me a traitor when you see me and I will respond in kind and we will both feel better dispensing with the courtesies.
Last free bump from me.
The above pictured case is a fine example of an original J.EF Q Case, commonly known as a Flowers case. It was made by Nora Van Horn for Jay using leather supplied by veteran collector Mark Kulungian of Pool Table Magic. This case is 100% unique and would be a fine addition to anyone's case collection.
The price is a bargain $650 to own one of the few surviving J.EF Q Cases on the planet. The pictures are a bit rough but I am certain that Joe would be willing to take detail shots for sincerely interested buyers.
I am sorry that you don't respect history enough to learn the proper names of the items you sell. But in any event you can clearly see what Jay Flowers himself wanted to call his cases.
In closing I REALLY HOPE that you sell this case. It is a fine example and very rare. If you want to continue to insult me go ahead. I will let you have the last shot since this is your thread. I think everyone got my point in the first post I made and they understand that I wasn't putting you down.
Please don't bother to be nice to me at Valley Forge. I'd rather that you just show the courage to insult me and my family in person as you feel free to do here. Just call me a traitor when you see me and I will respond in kind and we will both feel better dispensing with the courtesies.
Last free bump from me.
The above pictured case is a fine example of an original J.EF Q Case, commonly known as a Flowers case. It was made by Nora Van Horn for Jay using leather supplied by veteran collector Mark Kulungian of Pool Table Magic. This case is 100% unique and would be a fine addition to anyone's case collection.
The price is a bargain $650 to own one of the few surviving J.EF Q Cases on the planet. The pictures are a bit rough but I am certain that Joe would be willing to take detail shots for sincerely interested buyers.
Last edited:
Then he should have simply said "an original Flowers case". I am sorry but I don't feel the way you do. I think Joe deliberately used the wrong brand to take a shot. If not then he is just not bright and used the wrong brand name.
The implication of stating that what he is selling is a "real" Flowers is that there are "fake" ones out there. This is not the case. I am not building replicas of J.EF Q Cases and trying to confuse buyers. I am not trying to TRICK anyone into thinking that they are getting an original "Flowers" case.
I think it was Joe's intention to take a shot at me with the way he worded it. I think it was a deliberate taunt. Whatever his intention was he still ended up dong it wrong. As David pointed out he has confused things.
Someone who is not in the inner circle of knowledge might have looked up J.Flowers and concluded that Joe's price was simply too high since the current street price of J.Flowers cases is about $300. Without any further information, since Joe didn't provide any, that the case was one that was made by Nora Van Horn in Tampa and sold by Jay Flowers it would be easy for people not in the know to assume that the case is one made by us.
Thus the clarification. Is it so hard to simply take five minutes extra and write a clear description? People whine and ***** about the state of the market and they don't bother to be clear. It's not only the people in the know who look on this forum to buy stuff. Sometimes if you give the right history of an item you create a new buyer who had no clue.
Nah, i don't think RH would give a shit:smile:
on topic: the thread crapping allowed on this site is absurd...
Last edited:
Ad for the J.EF Q Case.
John,
After seeing his cases all these years, as I read this ad, it JUST dawned on me what his signature on his cases may have really meant.... The J.EF Q Case may mean that he wanted his cases to be referred to as the " J F Cue Case " which is the phonetic of his signature.
I`m likely wrong.
Will Prout
John,
After seeing his cases all these years, as I read this ad, it JUST dawned on me what his signature on his cases may have really meant.... The J.EF Q Case may mean that he wanted his cases to be referred to as the " J F Cue Case " which is the phonetic of his signature.
I`m likely wrong.
Will Prout
Last edited:
Ad for the J.EF Q Case.
John,
After seeing his cases all these years, as I read this ad, it JUST dawned on me what his signature on his cases may have really meant.... The J.EF Q Case may mean that he wanted his cases to be referred to as the " J F Cue Case " which is the phonetic of his signature.
I`m likely wrong.
Will Prout
Maybe so. Looking at it your way I can see that J EF (eff) makes sense. So then the brand is pronounced JF Cue Case.
According to Chris Tate who was the last guy (only guy) to interview Jay before Jay left us Jay said it was done because he thought it sounded snazzy.
"Jay Flowers cases pioneered the design of the tooled leather cue case. These type of cases have become very popular and provide the ideal combination of good looks, durability, and protection for cues. Jay Flowers' real name was Jasper Meeks Flowers, Jr. He was born in 1932 and was a Korean War veteran. He also played in many professional pool events. The fancy letters on his cases, "JEF", stood for Jay E. Flowers, basically a name he thought sounded snazzy. Jay knew all the pro players and took orders for the cases, handling the business end of the company." - excerpted from http://www.palmercollector.com/JayFlowers.html
All I know is that I thought about it a lot before I chose "J.Flowers". Knowing it would cause some people to go off I still feel it was the right choice to achieve my goal of protecting "Jay Flowers" or just "Flowers" from being appropriated by some other company after I started to highlight the contribution and connection.
Good catch.
Do you think that knowing the proper history of the things being sold diminishes the attraction?
I don't. Everyone is always going on about being clear and honest in descriptions and when someone offers some information that is clear and honest then they get crapped on.
Now the buyer has all the information they need to make an informed decision without confusion as to where the case was born.
John, you have an answer to everything... stating all those FACTS, but the real FACT is you highjacked Joe's 'for sale' thread. The next time the administrators on AZ ban you, it should be for a lifetime. There's no doubt there will be a next time.
Until now I was always a John Barton fan. No more. I feel embarrassed when watching you go off and make a total fool of yourself, time after time. You are your own worst enemy.
Until now I was always a John Barton fan. No more. I feel embarrassed when watching you go off and make a total fool of yourself, time after time. You are your own worst enemy.
Hijacked it? No, I politely stated the information about the brand name and Joe hijacked it with his nasty response.
Sorry you feel the way you do. I don't like being called a murderer, traitor, exploiter of children, copier and all the other things Joe has seen fit to toss my way over the years while distorting the facts along the way.
I just tell it as I see it. Poor Joe will get over it. Here, let me buy my way out of this just to soothe your feelings, if Joe doesn't sell the case in the next 30 days I will call Mark and see about buying it.