Fundamentals - Stance & Alignment

[BasementDweller]

In the last several months I switched to a more square stance myself..

Actually I switched to a snooker stance with my back leg straight and my front leg slightly bent, allowing me to get low on the cue while keeping my body out of the line of the shot and still keeping my hips and body square to the shot.

It was funny, because Up in SacTown, our fellow AZer JRHendy actually asked me if my background was snooker because he recognized my stance as being a snooker stance.

I laughed, being surprised at his good perception, and explained that, no, I had just adopted the snooker stance and have enjoyed the benefits that I perceive it has given me.

Jaden

Jaden,

Does this mean that you DO NOT twist your hips away from the square position? I think this is a bit different than how most snooker players do it.

Pidge -- if you are totally square to the shot line at what angle would you say your hips are at?

 

[Pidge]

Jaden,

Does this mean that you DO NOT twist your hips away from the square position? I think this is a bit different than how most snooker players do it.

Pidge -- if you are totally square to the shot line at what angle would you say your hips are at?

Feet are at 90 degrees, hips and shoulders around 60 degrees or so.

 

[scottjen26]

Interested in this, been experimenting over the last few days with opening up my stance a little more ala snooker as well. Early results are positive, but making sure I'm not falling victim to some sort of euphoria just from change itself.

For me, I like the setup, seems to help my shooting arm be a little more in line with the shot, the traditional way I can sometimes end up with my arm to the right just a bit. I already lock my back leg and bend the front, started doing that last year after keeping both bent. I'm also more conscious of the cue across my chest with the snooker setup, am trying to get it on my chin as well but normally I'm a few inches above and getting that low, while giving another point of contact, looks blurry to me because of my bad eyes and proximity to the cue and cue ball. Need reading glasses soon...

Just wanted a bunch of Barrow's stuff this past weekend, as well as videos by Gareth Potts and others. Lot's of good stuff in there.

Right now I use SEE, so I do have to contend with some of the pivot-based movements, but it's so natural that the two seem to blend together just fine. I don't think aiming approach has to dictate stance requirements, and I don't see any players with poor fundamentals able to properly execute any aiming approach.

Scott

 

[sfleinen]

Jaden,

Does this mean that you DO NOT twist your hips away from the square position? I think this is a bit different than how most snooker players do it.

Pidge -- if you are totally square to the shot line at what angle would you say your hips are at?

Chris:

If you don't mind my taking a swing at this ...?

There are two styles of the snooker stance; the boxer stance, and the traditional square-on snooker stance.

Andrew Green describes it well in this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3PJQMCh0f0U

Neil Maxman: close-up of foot placement for snooker stance:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TRDwmGXTL1Y

You'll notice in the first video (the Andrew Green one) that the planted foot (the right foot for a right-hander) is slightly pointed outwards, even though it's stepping right on the line of the shot. This affords the slight rotation of the hips that (methinks) Pidge is describing.

The traditional snooker stance, however, has the planted foot stepping on and pointing 100% into the shot (sides of the foot are parallel with the shot line itself), and this stance requires the hips to seat inwards slightly. What I mean, is if you go to a tall mirror and stand in front of it, watch what happens when shift all your weight to your right leg (make your left foot come off the floor slightly). You'll notice your hip "seats inwards" (shifts to the left) such that your hip is now 100% parallel with the outermost right edge of your thigh. In the traditional snooker stance, you obviously don't place all of your weight on that leg, but most of it, and it achieves the same thing -- the hip seats inward, and gives you clearance such that your right hand (the grip hand) doesn't collide with the edge of your hip. This, I believe, is the stance that Jaden describes.

Yes, the boxer stance requires a locked leg just like the traditional snooker stance, but they achieve that "hip clearance" in different ways -- the boxer stance has a bit of a rotation of the leg itself (which moves the hip out of the way), while the traditional snooker stance uses a "seating / shifting" method.

Hope that helps!
-Sean

 

[Spimp13]

I hate my stance and it is unfixable....gg Matt! When I say unfixable I mean the "comfortable" stance I currently have is not a good stance as it puts more pressure on my knees on how they bend, but I can't seem to find a better one that is more comfortable to actually shoot.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Chris:

If you don't mind my taking a swing at this ...?

There are two styles of the snooker stance; the boxer stance, and the traditional square-on snooker stance.

Andrew Green describes it well in this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3PJQMCh0f0U

Neil Maxman: close-up of foot placement for snooker stance:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TRDwmGXTL1Y

You'll notice in the first video (the Andrew Green one) that the planted foot (the right foot for a right-hander) is slightly pointed outwards, even though it's stepping right on the line of the shot. This affords the slight rotation of the hips that (methinks) Pidge is describing.

The traditional snooker stance, however, has the planted foot stepping on and pointing 100% into the shot (sides of the foot are parallel with the shot line itself), and this stance requires the hips to seat inwards slightly. What I mean, is if you go to a tall mirror and stand in front of it, watch what happens when shift all your weight to your right leg (make your left foot come off the floor slightly). You'll notice your hip "seats inwards" (shifts to the left) such that your hip is now 100% parallel with the outermost right edge of your thigh. In the traditional snooker stance, you obviously don't place all of your weight on that leg, but most of it, and it achieves the same thing -- the hip seats inward, and gives you clearance such that your right hand (the grip hand) doesn't collide with the edge of your hip. This, I believe, is the stance that Jaden describes.

Yes, the boxer stance requires a locked leg just like the traditional snooker stance, but they achieve that "hip clearance" in different ways -- the boxer stance has a bit of a rotation of the leg itself (which moves the hip out of the way), while the traditional snooker stance uses a "seating / shifting" method.

Hope that helps!
-Sean

Funny that you should post that Andrew Green video, Sean, as I was just about to do the same with a question for Pidge (or you, of course).

He says he is placing his right foot on the line of the shot, but his head is to the left of the line of the shot, and that's going to be the case unless you move your head to the right while standing. Obviously as he gets into full stance his head goes onto the line of the shot. I just thought with the snooker stance the head was supposed to be on the line from beginning to end.

 

[ronscuba]

Is it possible to keep your head on the line by either leaning to one side or standing angled ?

If your shooting stance is square: can you lean to the right and then walk in ?

My shooting stance is angled, so I stand hips and shoulders angled with my head on the line. I then walk in angled and my head stays on the line.

Is this good or bad ?

 

[nobcitypool]

I'm talking from my experience. I move directly into the shot along the shot line. You CTE'ers are different. The method you choose to use doesn't make this possible. At the risk of making this a flame war, I think we should end it here.

Forget the CTE argument. I used other aiming systems previously. After learning CTE, if/when I shoot a shot by feel or whatever (not using CTE), I now find it so much more comfortable coming into the ball from an offset. Watching professionals (pool, not snooker), it appears to me that most come in with an offset. I say this because it appears they move at least their heads, if not their bodies as well, either left or right depending upon the shot. No flame war needed in the least, you are more than welcome to your approach and your opinion. Just sharing my own.

 

[nobcitypool]

You'd think, but great players often really don't know much about mechanics. They also don't often know much about the physics of pool on a detailed level.

They do all know a lot about shot selection, tactics, and the mental game, because these are things you can't help but be conscious of, and they wouldn't be great players if they didn't do these things very well. I'll let Stevie's words go unquestioned on topics like those.

-Andrew

That may be the case with many, but having taken several lessons from Stevie, I can tell you it isn't the case with him. Keep in mind Stevie spent weeks, if not months, studying under Stan Shuffett. Stevie is fanatical about the basic fundamentals and mechanics. Stevie doesn't get the credit he deserves (yet) for being an outstanding instructor.

 

[Bossman69]

Fundamentals-Stance & Alignment

For sure there are many ways to stand, aim and stroke. I know for me being wide shouldered and barrel chested, I have not got a choice but to move into the shot with an open stance. By doing so I am more stable and can attain a repeatable controlled stroke. The fact that I have a left master eye dictates that I follow my described approach to get my left eye closer to the shot line. Thinner less bulky frames require less of an open stance than mine unless the shooter has a left master eye.
If you are confident with your stroke and want to prove or disprove these concepts to yourself, place the cue ball close to the end rail and the object ball two diamonds away from the the other end rail and straight in line with the pocket. From there take the same number of shots using either method to draw the rock back to your starting cue position.
Having to elevate and move your head and shoulders to a higher elevation will soon show you stance you are best suited for. Remember, if you cannot keep your eye down the shot line through the entire stroke the stance is not correct for you.
I have found that by moving my hand forward on the cue about 6 inches allows me to keep my left eye on the shot line and keeps my draw stroke straight and repeatable.
Give it a try, It worked for me. I have helped a number of players with this same issue. It is the easiest part of the PSR to hone. Have fun and shoot well!

 

[Pidge]

Funny that you should post that Andrew Green video, Sean, as I was just about to do the same with a question for Pidge (or you, of course).

He says he is placing his right foot on the line of the shot, but his head is to the left of the line of the shot, and that's going to be the case unless you move your head to the right while standing. Obviously as he gets into full stance his head goes onto the line of the shot. I just thought with the snooker stance the head was supposed to be on the line from beginning to end.

In a previous post I mentioned the need to lean over to the right slightly and to place the majority of weight onto the right foot when standing. As you twist and bend the head should move directly along the line of the shot, and the weight spreads out between both feet.

 

[sfleinen]

Funny that you should post that Andrew Green video, Sean, as I was just about to do the same with a question for Pidge (or you, of course).

He says he is placing his right foot on the line of the shot, but his head is to the left of the line of the shot, and that's going to be the case unless you move your head to the right while standing. Obviously as he gets into full stance his head goes onto the line of the shot. I just thought with the snooker stance the head was supposed to be on the line from beginning to end.

BeiberLvr:

The head is aligned by a very slight bend (to the right) at the waist while you are standing. It's more of a "tilt" at the waist, that comes naturally if you were to place most of your weight on that planted foot (the right foot, for a right-hander). As you bend over (at the hips) onto the table into the shooting stance, you maintain that slight bend/tilt to make sure your chin comes down onto the cue. Now that you point this out, this is a detail that seemingly comes automatic to those familiar with the snooker stance, but needs to be pointed out such that others who are not familiar may learn (or try) it.

Since you have the cue on the right side of the body, certain slight bends and adjustments are necessary to get your head centered over it while in full shooting stance. The emphasis is on "slight" btw -- it's not like you're contorting yourself over the cue. (I say this, because pool stance advocates make it sound like the snooker stance is "unnatural" or even "painful" -- which it isn't.)

So, you have a combination of the slight bend at the waist (which is for head-centering/-alignment onto the shot line), and the "seating" of the hip (to make clearance for the grip hand to swing freely past the hip) which gives the solid "plastered up against a wall on my right side" feeling when you do the snooker stance properly. (All these details assume a right-hander, btw; obviously reversed for a left-hander.)

In a previous post I mentioned the need to lean over to the right slightly and to place the majority of weight onto the right foot when standing. As you twist and bend the head should move directly along the line of the shot, and the weight spreads out between both feet.

Yup, that's the ticket! Good description, Pidge!

Hope this helps,
-Sean

 

[Mirza]

Sean,

Could you possibly expand a bit on this subject:

"the "seating" of the hip (to make clearance for the grip hand to swing freely past the hip)"

What do you mean by the seating of the hip? Any other way of describing this?

Tnx.

BeiberLvr:

The head is aligned by a very slight bend (to the right) at the waist while you are standing. It's more of a "tilt" at the waist, that comes naturally if you were to place most of your weight on that planted foot (the right foot, for a right-hander). As you bend over (at the hips) onto the table into the shooting stance, you maintain that slight bend/tilt to make sure your chin comes down onto the cue. Now that you point this out, this is a detail that seemingly comes automatic to those familiar with the snooker stance, but needs to be pointed out such that others who are not familiar may learn (or try) it.

Since you have the cue on the right side of the body, certain slight bends and adjustments are necessary to get your head centered over it while in full shooting stance. The emphasis is on "slight" btw -- it's not like you're contorting yourself over the cue. (I say this, because pool stance advocates make it sound like the snooker stance is "unnatural" or even "painful" -- which it isn't.)

So, you have a combination of the slight bend at the waist (which is for head-centering/-alignment onto the shot line), and the "seating" of the hip (to make clearance for the grip hand to swing freely past the hip) which gives the solid "plastered up against a wall on my right side" feeling when you do the snooker stance properly. (All these details assume a right-hander, btw; obviously reversed for a left-hander.)



Yup, that's the ticket! Good description, Pidge!

Hope this helps,
-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

For sure there are many ways to stand, aim and stroke. I know for me being wide shouldered and barrel chested, I have not got a choice but to move into the shot with an open stance. By doing so I am more stable and can attain a repeatable controlled stroke. The fact that I have a left master eye dictates that I follow my described approach to get my left eye closer to the shot line. Thinner less bulky frames require less of an open stance than mine unless the shooter has a left master eye.
If you are confident with your stroke and want to prove or disprove these concepts to yourself, place the cue ball close to the end rail and the object ball two diamonds away from the the other end rail and straight in line with the pocket. From there take the same number of shots using either method to draw the rock back to your starting cue position.
Having to elevate and move your head and shoulders to a higher elevation will soon show you stance you are best suited for. Remember, if you cannot keep your eye down the shot line through the entire stroke the stance is not correct for you.
I have found that by moving my hand forward on the cue about 6 inches allows me to keep my left eye on the shot line and keeps my draw stroke straight and repeatable.
Give it a try, It worked for me. I have helped a number of players with this same issue. It is the easiest part of the PSR to hone. Have fun and shoot well!

Bossman69:

I know what you mean by using the word "open stance" -- which is to mean an angled stance (a la classic pool stance), but the problem is that the word "open" means different things to different people. I've seen folks use the word "open" to refer to the snooker stance, as in "opening up the shoulders" to be square upon the shot. Thus, I tend to shy away from using the words "open" or "closed" to refer to stances.

Also, while the classic pool stance (which was taught by Dr. Lanson [Lance] Perkins in the 19th and early 20th centuries) has the "automatic" benefit of bringing the left eye closer to the shot line via the 45-degree angle of the feet and hips to that shot line, it can easily be done with the snooker stance as well. And, is commonly so, when you look at opposite-eye-dominant players like e.g. Tony Drago, who's a right-hander but left-eye-dominant:

And vice-versa for e.g. Jimmy White (who's a left-hander, and right-eye dominant):

The head alignment is accomplished while standing over the shot line; the player implements the amount of "tilt" at the hips (to the right for a right-hander) to align the head the way he/she needs, and this is maintained as the upper body is "lowered" over/onto the shot line via bending at the hips. If a "face-turn" (further to the right) is needed so that the left eye "leads" the right eye, that can be done as well.

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean

 

[BeiberLvr]

Thanks Sean and Pidge. That was very helpful.

 

[sfleinen]

Sean,

Could you possibly expand a bit on this subject:

"the "seating" of the hip (to make clearance for the grip hand to swing freely past the hip)"

What do you mean by the seating of the hip? Any other way of describing this?

Tnx.

Sure, Mirza! It means that the hip "shifts inwards" (tucking into the body) when you place most of your body weight onto that leg.

For example, if you have a tall body-length mirror in your house somewhere (e.g. to see how a suit looks upon your body, and shows your legs), walk up to it, and stand normally. Then, shift your weight over to your right leg, and notice how your hip "tucks inwards" such that the outside edge of your hip is level/even/parallel to the outside edge of your leg? (Meaning, the hip is no longer sticking out -- you have a nice parallel line from your foot all the way up the right side of your body.)

In the snooker stance, basically what you're doing is standing on that "planted leg" (your right leg, which is placed directly on the shot line), with the weight distribution favoring that leg -- which seats or tucks-in the hip, and then slightly tilting (to the right) at the waist as well to align the head over the shot line. When you bend over at the waist to lower your upper body onto the cue (onto the shot line), your head is centered (or, to one side if you need to favor a dominant eye), and your weight still favors that planted leg. You can shift the weight slightly to distribute more evenly, and the bend at your waist will accommodate automatically. But you should still feel like you're "planted up against a wall" on your right side. Obviously, reverse for a left-hander.

I hope that helps!

 

[Mirza]

It does, I understand now.

Thank you :smile:

Sure, Mirza! It means that the hip "shifts inwards" (tucking into the body) when you place most of your body weight onto that leg.

For example, if you have a tall body-length mirror in your house somewhere (e.g. to see how a suit looks upon your body, and shows your legs), walk up to it, and stand normally. Then, shift your weight over to your right leg, and notice how your hip "tucks inwards" such that the outside edge of your hip is level/even/parallel to the outside edge of your leg? (Meaning, the hip is no longer sticking out -- you have a nice parallel line from your foot all the way up the right side of your body.)

In the snooker stance, basically what you're doing is standing on that "planted leg" (your right leg, which is placed directly on the shot line), with the weight distribution favoring that leg -- which seats or tucks-in the hip, and then slightly tilting (to the right) at the waist as well to align the head over the shot line. When you bend over at the waist to lower your upper body onto the cue (onto the shot line), your head is centered (or, to one side if you need to favor a dominant eye), and your weight still favors that planted leg. You can shift the weight slightly to distribute more evenly, and the bend at your waist will accommodate automatically. But you should still feel like you're "planted up against a wall" on your right side. Obviously, reverse for a left-hander.

I hope that helps!

 

[BLADE]

When did grip come into the equation? I'm like you..pads of the palm with the V up against the cue snuggly. You have your opinions, I have mine. Think we should leave it there.

Darren Appleton once told me the whole game is in the grip. I have to say he was half right. It's in the eyes and the grip.

 

[BasementDweller]

Do you walk into the shot?

One thing I would recommend getting used to is when stood upright with the feet set in position, you naturally have to place most of your weight onto the right leg and lean over to the right slightly to get your head and vision centre set through centre cue ball. Then just see it as a transfer of weight onto the left leg. Twist, shift the weight balance and drop. If you keep focused on your head and vision centre being constantly on the line of the shot as you twist and bend you won't go too wrong with alignment.

Like with everything, it does take a lot of practice, and conscious practice at first. But it does become automatic eventually

Chris:

If you don't mind my taking a swing at this ...?

There are two styles of the snooker stance; the boxer stance, and the traditional square-on snooker stance.

Andrew Green describes it well in this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3PJQMCh0f0U

Neil Maxman: close-up of foot placement for snooker stance:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TRDwmGXTL1Y

You'll notice in the first video (the Andrew Green one) that the planted foot (the right foot for a right-hander) is slightly pointed outwards, even though it's stepping right on the line of the shot. This affords the slight rotation of the hips that (methinks) Pidge is describing.

The traditional snooker stance, however, has the planted foot stepping on and pointing 100% into the shot (sides of the foot are parallel with the shot line itself), and this stance requires the hips to seat inwards slightly. What I mean, is if you go to a tall mirror and stand in front of it, watch what happens when shift all your weight to your right leg (make your left foot come off the floor slightly). You'll notice your hip "seats inwards" (shifts to the left) such that your hip is now 100% parallel with the outermost right edge of your thigh. In the traditional snooker stance, you obviously don't place all of your weight on that leg, but most of it, and it achieves the same thing -- the hip seats inward, and gives you clearance such that your right hand (the grip hand) doesn't collide with the edge of your hip. This, I believe, is the stance that Jaden describes.

Yes, the boxer stance requires a locked leg just like the traditional snooker stance, but they achieve that "hip clearance" in different ways -- the boxer stance has a bit of a rotation of the leg itself (which moves the hip out of the way), while the traditional snooker stance uses a "seating / shifting" method.
Hope that helps!
-Sean

Thank you both for a very informative thread.

The only issue I'm still trying to totally understand is with the hips. In Pidge's description it sounds like there's a focus on actually twisting the hips. Whereas, Sean's descriptions make it sound like the hips will naturally fall into place provided you follow the proper steps.

The only reason I even bring this up was because upon switching over to what I thought was a snooker stance several years back I later realized my shoulder's were too square to the shot line and the culprit was my hips weren't properly turned. I've sort of worked through that at this point (although still not text book), but for those that may be considering switching over to this type of stance after playing with a more traditional pool stance for years it might be something you want to consider.

Thanks again gents.

 

[Pidge]

Darren Appleton once told me the whole game is in the grip. I have to say he was half right. It's in the eyes and the grip.

But that doesn't answer my question. What does grip have to do with stance and alignment?