Future of cues and equipment

[mjantti]

I was pondering the future of cues and cue market. I have a couple of thoughts here.
- Pockets are getting smaller, players need to get closer to the cue --> short cues are history and we are moving towards 59-60" cues.
- Carbon fiber shafts are here to stay, but some players will stay with wooden, kielwood and CF infused shafts. I recently made a switch to a CF shaft (Revo) and feel that there is too much power occasionally. But it makes many shots sooooo much easier than a wooden one.
- General cue quality is going up partly with CF and manufacturing technology. A basic player from a production brand plays and compares very well to custom cues in terms of playability, feel and quality.
- High end custom cues business is eventually going down as the collectors are getting older and newer generations are mostly playing with newer cues. You rarely see a young gun shooting with a (local) custom cue anymore.
- Prices of custom cues are still going up. Maybe the older generation has more money to exchange these back and forth. 10-15 grand for an ebony Southwest? For how long? Will a collection of 100 SW's, Black Boars and Szambotis etc. hold its value for 20-30 years?
- Prices are going up with regular production cues. $1400 for a Cuetec? Would have chuckled on this a few years ago. (Not to bash Cuetecs, they hit really nicely)
- Break cues create so much power nowadays. It's kind of funny, because the modern rules have eliminated the power break almost completely.
- Jumping is so easy with current jump cues, don't have to be a jump master to clear an obstructing ball, make the object ball and spin the CB for position.
- There are so many different tips available nowadays that it makes my head spin. It used to be either Elk or Triangle and a special bonus if you knew how to make a milk dud.
- Modern chalk (Taom etc.) has eliminated the skid almost completely. To me it seems like almost a shark tactic to use a messy chalk

Anyway, support your local custom cue maker and order one today

 

[Bavafongoul]

I don’t understand the premise behind your conclusion TAOM and other chalks almost eliminate any skid completely?
Can you elaborate how any modern day chalk changes the roll of the cue ball differently than Masters or any brand?
The CB cleanliness is obviously important but has nothing to do with skid. How does TAOM reduce or eliminate skid?

 

[mjantti]

I don’t understand the premise behind your conclusion TAOM and other chalks almost eliminate any skid completely?
Can you elaborate how any modern day chalk changes the roll of the cue ball differently than Masters or any brand?
The CB cleanliness is obviously important but has nothing to do with skid. How does TAOM reduce or eliminate skid?

Besides my own observations, you don't have to take my word for it. Maybe Dr. Dave can share enlightenment:

Earlier thread: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/chalk-test-taom-pyro-vs-master.513406/

 

[garczar]

ok, is there a point here? i don't think anyone is going to disagree too much with these generalizations. I think the market for hi-end customs is going to get smaller-n-smaller with each new batch of players. Some custom makers will always be around but production stuff will continue to dominate the market.

 

[mjantti]

ok, is there a point here? i don't think anyone is going to disagree too much with these generalizations. I think the market for hi-end customs is going to get smaller-n-smaller with each new batch of players. Some custom makers will always be around but production stuff will continue to dominate the market.

When the production market is getting stronger and the custom market smaller, I find it interesting that the both have constantly increasing prices. I was into some custom cues some years ago but now I feel that the prices have gone above my range and they are much less enticing as investments unless you want to support your local custom cue maker. Probably the relatively fresh custom cue makers will stay around for a long time but time has passed on old makers: you don't see players shooting with Southwest, Tad or Black Boar anymore.

 

[garczar]

When the production market is getting stronger and the custom market smaller, I find it interesting that the both have constantly increasing prices. I was into some custom cues some years ago but now I feel that the prices have gone above my range and they are much less enticing as investments unless you want to support your local custom cue maker. Probably the relatively fresh custom cue makers will stay around for a long time but time has passed on old makers: you don't see players shooting with Southwest, Tad or Black Boar anymore.

You don't see 'pros' using them is the deal. A lot of a amat/rec. players still use cues like those mentioned. Pros just want a functional tool, they couldn't care less about fancy customs. Prices on some customs have reached stupid levels i agree.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

no point just more jabber,
pool is so odd and brings out odd behavior

 

[Texas Carom Club]

but time has passed on old makers: you don't see players shooting with Southwest, Tad or Black Boar anymore.

did you used to see them out in droves at the bar on apa night???

 

[Straightpool_99]

I was pondering the future of cues and cue market. I have a couple of thoughts here.
- Pockets are getting smaller, players need to get closer to the cue --> short cues are history and we are moving towards 59-60" cues.

People in general are taller than they used to be, and stances have also changed a bit.

- Carbon fiber shafts are here to stay, but some players will stay with wooden, kielwood and CF infused shafts. I recently made a switch to a CF shaft (Revo) and feel that there is too much power occasionally. But it makes many shots sooooo much easier than a wooden one.

I bought a Revo to use in a championship a couple of years ago, and frankly I didn't think there was much of a difference. I get the same spin and results as I would with a wooden cue (though I have been using spliced wooden shafts for a while now). I think overall i prefer wood, gives more feedback.

- General cue quality is going up partly with CF and manufacturing technology. A basic player from a production brand plays and compares very well to custom cues in terms of playability, feel and quality.

Yes and no. Playability is improving for most brands I think. Especially in the cheap segment. But an expensive cue stills feels like an expensive cue. The point of diminishing returns has, however, been lowered IMO.

- High end custom cues business is eventually going down as the collectors are getting older and newer generations are mostly playing with newer cues. You rarely see a young gun shooting with a (local) custom cue anymore.

That is true. But it is true of all collectibles. As people who played with the "whatever collectible" get older and richer, they tend to buy them and prices increase. People who are reaching middle age now, may never have had the chance to play with a custom cue. So demand won't be as high.

- Prices of custom cues are still going up. Maybe the older generation has more money to exchange these back and forth. 10-15 grand for an ebony Southwest? For how long? Will a collection of 100 SW's, Black Boars and Szambotis etc. hold its value for 20-30 years?

For high end collectibles the market is a bit different. There will always be a niche market for very high end things of whatever kind. For mid level customs the bottom will definitely fall out of the market eventually.

- Prices are going up with regular production cues. $1400 for a Cuetec? Would have chuckled on this a few years ago. (Not to bash Cuetecs, they hit really nicely)

Inflation will have an effect on any manufactured item and the market has been able to bear the increased cost. The modern cue customers believes in technology as a means to gain an advantage, rather than craftsmanship, and therefore value production cues with "high tech" words over hand made ones.

- Break cues create so much power nowadays. It's kind of funny, because the modern rules have eliminated the power break almost completely.

Disagree on both counts. Power break is still a thing in some rule sets and most of the "power" comes from hard tips.

- Jumping is so easy with current jump cues, don't have to be a jump master to clear an obstructing ball, make the object ball and spin the CB for position.

Easier to jump, yes. Cueball control is still rare to see apart from the high levels of play.

- There are so many different tips available nowadays that it makes my head spin. It used to be either Elk or Triangle and a special bonus if you knew how to make a milk dud.

Future is synthetic tips I think. But we're far away from that at the moment. The number of brands will keep expanding, but innovation is sorely lacking IMO. You can get your own brand of tips from China extremely easily, but they are mainly made at a few factories with very little actual difference.

- Modern chalk (Taom etc.) has eliminated the skid almost completely. To me it seems like almost a shark tactic to use a messy chalk

After a mishap in a major tournament where the chalk slipped out of my fingers and rolled across the entire televised arena, I won't be caught dead with round chalk!

Anyway, support your local custom cue maker and order one today

I agree as long as he/she is an honest cuemaker who behaves well towards customers.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

wait, you get sharked by a chalk?
jfc

 

[billiards_watch]

In the height of my weekly tournament career? Yes. In a tournament night in the late 90's to early 00's my pool room would consist of players using Southwest, Tonkin, Scruggs, Dale Perry's and Ginacues. Those are the popular brands at the time. To be fair, during those times production cues weren't very good. I can only recall Players cue as for production.

Heck, my first experience with Predator was some guy walking into the pool hall with 5 cues and asked the owner if he wanted to buy them. It was all sold that day. My friend has one of them still. No cat logo. There is 3 still floating around in my town from that sale.

A production cue will never reach the levels of a custom cue.

 

[SSP]

I was pondering the future of cues and cue market. I have a couple of thoughts here.
- Pockets are getting smaller, players need to get closer to the cue --> short cues are history and we are moving towards 59-60" cues.
- Carbon fiber shafts are here to stay, but some players will stay with wooden, kielwood and CF infused shafts. I recently made a switch to a CF shaft (Revo) and feel that there is too much power occasionally. But it makes many shots sooooo much easier than a wooden one.
- General cue quality is going up partly with CF and manufacturing technology. A basic player from a production brand plays and compares very well to custom cues in terms of playability, feel and quality.
- High end custom cues business is eventually going down as the collectors are getting older and newer generations are mostly playing with newer cues. You rarely see a young gun shooting with a (local) custom cue anymore.
- Prices of custom cues are still going up. Maybe the older generation has more money to exchange these back and forth. 10-15 grand for an ebony Southwest? For how long? Will a collection of 100 SW's, Black Boars and Szambotis etc. hold its value for 20-30 years?
- Prices are going up with regular production cues. $1400 for a Cuetec? Would have chuckled on this a few years ago. (Not to bash Cuetecs, they hit really nicely)
- Break cues create so much power nowadays. It's kind of funny, because the modern rules have eliminated the power break almost completely.
- Jumping is so easy with current jump cues, don't have to be a jump master to clear an obstructing ball, make the object ball and spin the CB for position.
- There are so many different tips available nowadays that it makes my head spin. It used to be either Elk or Triangle and a special bonus if you knew how to make a milk dud.
- Modern chalk (Taom etc.) has eliminated the skid almost completely. To me it seems like almost a shark tactic to use a messy chalk

Anyway, support your local custom cue maker and order one today

I went to CF after swearing I never would, I don't think you get anymore power or spin than a wooden shaft of the same size and diameter, what you do get is consistency, all woods have a pattern to them and none of them are the same, so the shaft you like is not repeatable, even ones that are pieced together, plus when cleaning a wood shaft you will slowly wear it down in size, these are not bad things but just the nature of anything made of wood, I have (2) CF shafts and both play the same so much I couldn't tell one from the other, this is a great trait to have if your tip pops of in a match or you want to A-B a new tip you want to try.

 

[skogstokig]

wait, you get sharked by a chalk?
jfc

i was gonna agree with you until i remembered that idiot with the lipstick kamui chalk i played in a tournament

 

[SSP]

People in general are taller than they used to be, and stances have also changed a bit.

I bought a Revo to use in a championship a couple of years ago, and frankly I didn't think there was much of a difference. I get the same spin and results as I would with a wooden cue (though I have been using spliced wooden shafts for a while now). I think overall i prefer wood, gives more feedback.

Yes and no. Playability is improving for most brands I think. Especially in the cheap segment. But an expensive cue stills feels like an expensive cue. The point of diminishing returns has, however, been lowered IMO.

That is true. But it is true of all collectibles. As people who played with the "whatever collectible" get older and richer, they tend to buy them and prices increase. People who are reaching middle age now, may never have had the chance to play with a custom cue. So demand won't be as high.

For high end collectibles the market is a bit different. There will always be a niche market for very high end things of whatever kind. For mid level customs the bottom will definitely fall out of the market eventually.

Inflation will have an effect on any manufactured item and the market has been able to bear the increased cost. The modern cue customers believes in technology as a means to gain an advantage, rather than craftsmanship, and therefore value production cues with "high tech" words over hand made ones.

Disagree on both counts. Power break is still a thing in some rule sets and most of the "power" comes from hard tips.

Easier to jump, yes. Cueball control is still rare to see apart from the high levels of play.

Future is synthetic tips I think. But we're far away from that at the moment. The number of brands will keep expanding, but innovation is sorely lacking IMO. You can get your own brand of tips from China extremely easily, but they are mainly made at a few factories with very little actual difference.

After a mishap in a major tournament where the chalk slipped out of my fingers and rolled across the entire televised arena, I won't be caught dead with round chalk!

I agree as long as he/she is an honest cuemaker who behaves well towards customers.

Future is synthetic tips I think......so do I, I am going to try the Bulletproof Recoil tip in a couple of weeks.

 

[Fitzz47]

Future is synthetic tips I think......so do I, I am going to try the Bulletproof Recoil tip in a couple of weeks.

I bought a soft bulletproof recoil tip and played with it yesterday and today. Not sure if I’m going to stick with it. I’m not getting good feedback with this tip. I’ll give it a week,as I have a tournament on March 1st. My playing tip has been a techno dud from outsville.

 

[SSP]

I bought a soft bulletproof recoil tip and played with it yesterday and today. Not sure if I’m going to stick with it. I’m not getting good feedback with this tip. I’ll give it a week,as I have a tournament on March 1st. My playing tip has been a techno dud from outsville.

I'm using a Kamui Athlete H tip now, I'm going to try the H version of the Recoil tip, when you say feedback do you mean the vibration from impact with the cue ball?

 

[garczar]

I bought a soft bulletproof recoil tip and played with it yesterday and today. Not sure if I’m going to stick with it. I’m not getting good feedback with this tip. I’ll give it a week,as I have a tournament on March 1st. My playing tip has been a techno dud from outsville.

There's a reason that leather is still used for gloves, shoes, saddles, and tips: its still the best material for the job. Not saying syn. tips won't get better i just don't think leather will be surpassed anytime soon if ever.

 

[SSP]

There's a reason that leather is still used for gloves, shoes, saddles, and tips: its still the best material for the job. Not saying syn. tips won't get better i just don't think leather will be surpassed anytime soon if ever.

I said the same thing about CF shafts.......now I own a CF cue......Becue cues are all CF, love how it hits, if the worst thing that happens is I don't like it and I cut it off and replace it with the tip I'm using now.......it will be a great day.

 

[garczar]

I said the same thing about CF shafts.......now I own a CF cue......Becue cues are all CF, love how it hits, if the worst thing that happens is I don't like it and I cut it off and replace it with the tip I'm using now.......it will be a great day.

As for CF i personally don't think how they play is biggest reason for buying one. Its the 'ease of ownership' as in no dings, slick finish, no warpage that seals the deal. I've owned both and i can't do anything with cf i can't do with wood. Some cf shafts may have a 'tad' more power for driving the ball but even that is tiny. I'm currently back on solid maple and loving it.

 

[slide13]

As for CF i personally don't think how they play is biggest reason for buying one. Its the 'ease of ownership' as in no dings, slick finish, no warpage that seals the deal. I've owned both and i can't do anything with cf i can't do with wood. Some cf shafts may have a 'tad' more power for driving the ball but even that is tiny. I'm currently back on solid maple and loving it.

Just curious is that LD maple or standard deflection?