Getting head up on long shots, tall player

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jordan23042000

AzB Silver Member
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When I get down on a long shot it sometimes feels like I can't get my head up enough to see the ob clearly, like it's too much in my periphery. I tried coming up more upright to get my head up but since this isn't my normal stance I feel I'm not stroking the ball as well. I'm 6'4-6'5 so on long shots the top of my head is pointed at the shot more than a shorter player. I see 3 possible options
1. Trust my peripheral vision to see the object ball. Perhaps this could work better than I think? It just messes with me mentally not to get a good clear view of the object ball.
2. Use a more upright stance and just work on it.
3. Try to work on neck flexibility. Next time I play I'm going to see if maybe I can get my head up more from the low position.
4. Possibly bending the knees more in the stance?
 
FranCrimi said:
Just to be clear, what do you mean by long shots? Can you give an example?
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The object ball very far from the cue ball, like rail to rail distance between cue ball and object ball. With the object ball closer it's fine.
If you imagine a very tall player who gets pretty low over his cue, the farther away the ob is the more you must flex the neck to bring the eyes up

Maybe this image will help visualize what I mean. Imagine a player taller than Jeremy in the photo or with less neck flexibility
220f7d24c5711004f162347792b5dfcc.jpg
 
What do you mean with "too much in my periphery"? The CB and OB appear closer to eachother in your field of vision the lower you are on the shot, so wouldn't the image be less peripheral the lower you are? Am I mixing up some definition here?

I can understand not wanting to go low due to lack of comfort in the stance, but shot image wise it should have the opposite effect and be more helpful the lower you are.

Edit: After reading your second post again, it seems like the issue has to do with your head's angle being such that you have to look at both the CB and OB with your eyes looking uncomfortably far above the center of your vision. I would suggest working (preferably with a coach) trying to find a more comfortable stance that allows your head to face the shot more onwards with less neck strain. Even with bad neck flexibility there should be some stance out there for you that solves this issue, at least partially.

As for what this helpful stance change might be, personally I have found that really bending back from the waist/lower back a lot while going down the shot helps remove the strain from the neck/upper body and allows you to go down low on the shot more effortlessly with less neck strain. This might not apply to you, or perhaps you already do it, but it's worth a try.
 
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People can shoot very well with their head as high as two feet above the cue stick. You may need to adjust your stance, though, since typically your head moves laterally based on your trunk bend/height above the table. Feel free to post a video here for help.
 
Oikawa said:
What do you mean with "too much in my periphery"? The CB and OB appear closer to eachother in your field of vision the lower you are on the shot, so wouldn't the image be less peripheral the lower you are? Am I mixing up some definition here?

I can understand not wanting to go low due to lack of comfort in the stance, but shot image wise it should have the opposite effect and be more helpful the lower you are.

Edit: After reading your second post again, it seems like the issue has to do with your head's angle being such that you have to look at both the CB and OB with your eyes looking uncomfortably far above the center of your vision. I would suggest working (preferably with a coach) trying to find a more comfortable stance that allows your head to face the shot more onwards with less neck strain. Even with bad neck flexibility there should be some stance out there for you that solves this issue, at least partially.
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I think you got my meaning because your edit makes sense. But by periphery I mean I can only see the object ball in the very top of my field of vision and it makes me feel like I'm not seeing clearly. Sorry if my descriptions are unclear this is a tricky thing to put in words.
Now what I tend to do is get down over the shot, feel uncomfortable with my sight of the object ball, then I end up lifting my whole upper body up 6" or so (not just moving at the neck). I just feel this has to be inefficient because I certainly play and stroke better from my normal lower stance.
 
jordan23042000 said:
I think you got my meaning because your edit makes sense. But by periphery I mean I can only see the object ball in the very top of my field of vision and it makes me feel like I'm not seeing clearly. Sorry if my descriptions are unclear this is a tricky thing to put in words.
Now what I tend to do is get down over the shot, feel uncomfortable with my sight of the object ball, then I end up lifting my whole upper body up 6" or so (not just moving at the neck). I just feel this has to be inefficient because I certainly play and stroke better from my normal lower stance.
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Perhaps try to look at tall pro players who are down low and try to emulate their stance. e.g. Fedor Gorst or Eklent Kaci.

1728566971096.jpeg

In this example it doesn't look like Eclent has to bend his neck a lot to achieve a good stance, which is because his lower back/waist is bent a lot. If you bend from the upper torso/neck, it will be very uncomfortable.
 
I think option 1 you outline is probably it. I'm 6'3" and have taught players as tall as 6'7" and we have not had the issue you are describing. That said, we all have both legs bent 'big man' stances so if you play with a straight back leg I'd strongly recommend changing that at your height.

Your lack of trust in the top of your visual range may just be in your head or you may actually be an outlier and have weaker vision there than most. You can get a visual field test done to confirm for sure if this is just a mental hangup or an actual vision issue, but honestly checking it for yourself by looking at something and then tilting your head till you are looking at it from the top of your vision should be enough to identify if there is a drop off in visual acuity and if it is big enough to warrant changing your setup for.
 
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Oikawa said:
Perhaps try to look at tall pro players who are down low and try to emulate their stance. e.g. Fedor Gorst or Eklent Kaci.

View attachment 783394
In this example it doesn't look like Eclent has to bend his neck a lot to achieve a good stance, which is because his lower back/waist is bent a lot. If you bend from the upper torso/neck, it will be very uncomfortable.
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That photo makes me think I can improve the flexibility in my waist hips maybe. I have more curvature in my upper back while I'm down
 
jordan23042000 said:
That photo makes me think I can improve the flexibility in my waist hips maybe. I have more curvature in my upper back while I'm down
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Yes, this change is good. I have done similar changes to my stance and it is more comfortable to stay down like that compared to bending the upper back or neck more.

For me, another important aspect to help neck strain is to extend the bridge arm forward and further, so that your stance is "longer". This means your head can be further forward, which reduces the amount of neck/upper back bending. That Kaci stance image above is a good example of this too, his bridge arm is very straight.
 
jordan23042000 said:
Ty guys for your responses. I have a few things to think about next time I get in some practice. I'll try to make a recording of myself as well
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A recording is best for sure. If you have curvature in your upper back like you mentioned, that def sounds like there may be some setup issues contributing to your problem and may also result in other stroke issues you didn't even raise in this thread.
 
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WobblyStroke said:
A recording is best for sure. If you have curvature in your upper back like you mentioned, that def sounds like there may be some setup issues contributing to your problem and may also result in other stroke issues you didn't even raise in this thread.
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Any tips on what angle to try to achieve and what height etc.? I'm probably just gonna end up propping my phone up on the drink table at first but I could get a tripod if I feel it's worth the effort
 
jordan23042000 said:
Any tips on what angle to try to achieve and what height etc.? I'm probably just gonna end up propping my phone up on the drink table at first but I could get a tripod if I feel it's worth the effort
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Dr. Dave has a video posted on video analysis process that is a good guide.

A streamlined process I use with students is 3 shots from one camera position somewhere around one diamond off the corner pocket along the short rail. Propped up on a drink table should do just fine. One shot filmed from behind on the shot line with a good look at the grip hand. Another shooting the other way with a face on view. Finally, a 3rd shot with a side view on the side of your stroke arm. So basically a slight back cut up and down table to have the stroke line relatively close to your camera angle and a shot into the corner for the side view.
 
jordan23042000 said:
The object ball very far from the cue ball, like rail to rail distance between cue ball and object ball. With the object ball closer it's fine.
If you imagine a very tall player who gets pretty low over his cue, the farther away the ob is the more you must flex the neck to bring the eyes up

Maybe this image will help visualize what I mean. Imagine a player taller than Jeremy in the photo or with less neck flexibility
220f7d24c5711004f162347792b5dfcc.jpg
Click to expand...

OK, thanks. We're on the same page in defining a long shot. Just a guess, but it sounds like you may be compromising your stance somewhat on the medium to shorter shots -- sort of getting away with just an OK stance. So your OK stance starts to fail when you try to shoot long shots.

The reason I think that is because technically, it shouldn't matter whether you're shooting a medium distance or a longer distance shot. For shorter shots, yes, many players stand a bit taller because it's important to see the space between the cue ball and object ball. But medium and long should pretty much be the same. Try to nail those two down with the same stance if you can.

Standing a little farther back with a longer bridge length is something you can explore, unless your bridge length is already long. Knee bending is also an option, but it's tricky because it's not that easy to bend your knees the exact same amount every time you get to the table. You don't want to bend them too much to where you're shooting up at the ball. I've experimented with bent knees and without realizing it, I started bending them more and more and wound up shooting up at the cue ball, and even hit my knuckle on the rail a few times. Youch!
 
jordan23042000 said:
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4. Possibly bending the knees more in the stance?
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Try this. I think it will get your head positioned as close to where you want it as possible. It might not be a long term solution due to the added effort from your legs.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Try this. I think it will get your head positioned as close to where you want it as possible. It might not be a long term solution due to the added effort from your legs.
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Ty Bob. I'm gonna try a few things in my next practice session and take some videos. I hope you'll have a chance to look at the video. I appreciate it
 
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I was reflecting on this again today. Most players don't need to position their chin directly over the cue. In fact, you can have your head as high as two feet above the cue and still play exceptionally well.

I would love to see some videos from you as well. Thank you!
 
BilliardsAbout said:
I was reflecting on this again today. Most players don't need to position their chin directly over the cue. In fact, you can have your head as high as two feet above the cue and still play exceptionally well.

I would love to see some videos from you as well. Thank you!
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I agree. If you look at how the stroke works, pendulum or however... as long as you're getting a straight stroke that doesn't veer to the sides you can make a strong game with it. Low, upright or anywhere in between can work.

With back issues I have about 3-5 stance types. Some are pretty upright. I'll be the first to admit that having multiple stances holds my game back, but it's either that or not playing.

Anyway, when I'm in stance I like to feather my cue just a bit, maybe 1/2" if I were to try to put a number to it. If the feathering is straight I'm good. If it's not then I'm not aligned correctly. On days I can do my default stance I don't really have to check with the feathering, but on days where I just cant, the feathering is a good check to make sure I'm not steering the cue. I'm not saying to rely on the feathering but it can be a powerful self diagnostic tool while you're building your stance to rote level.
 
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