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Pop And Slop
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jjinfla said:
I agree, pool is like playing chess, a win is a win and you don't need to bring out your queen to win at chess nor do you need to play your best to win at pool.
Jay
getting shape
- Thread starter Bluewolf
- Start date
I agree, pool is like playing chess, a win is a win and you don't need to bring out your queen to win at chess nor do you need to play your best to win at pool.
Jay
sandbagging
I do not believe in sandbagging. If you read the apa handbook, the main way to prevent this is by marking safes.There is another type of 'sandbagging' that goes on some call 'handicap management. I do not believe in this either.
Last session, one of my captains turned to me and said 'you will be a 2 for a long time'. I turned to my 7 hubbie and asked him what that meant. He said that meant that they would play me aginst players they kknow I could not beat to keep my sl down.
I just do not believe that these kind of practices are what Corporate APA had in mind, and our LO certainly does not promote this type off 'cheating'.
Laura
I do not believe in sandbagging. If you read the apa handbook, the main way to prevent this is by marking safes.There is another type of 'sandbagging' that goes on some call 'handicap management. I do not believe in this either.
Last session, one of my captains turned to me and said 'you will be a 2 for a long time'. I turned to my 7 hubbie and asked him what that meant. He said that meant that they would play me aginst players they kknow I could not beat to keep my sl down.
I just do not believe that these kind of practices are what Corporate APA had in mind, and our LO certainly does not promote this type off 'cheating'.
Laura
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Pop And Slop
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Re: sandbagging
I've been playing tournaments for about 14 years now and League for only the last 2 years (as a captain). Last year my team placed 1st in league play and 2nd in the season ending tournament (16 teams). This year we placed 3rd in league and 2nd in the tournament (33 teams). I was ranked #1 overall (242 players) and all without sandbagging. In league play I don't feel the need for me personally to manage my handicap because it's meant to be fun. Tournament play I feel differently about it. I used to play in a handicapped tournament and would on occasion manage my handicap. I mean, why play great during the season, raise my handicap so high that I would have no chance to win in the final tournament so that a "rookie" would walk away with the prize.
You may not believe in doing it but for some it is just another skill used to win tournaments.
You find that managing your handicap is "cheating" and that is your opinion and I respect that. Some people think that playing a safety is cheating too. I think it's all just part of the game.
Jay
Bluewolf said:
I've been playing tournaments for about 14 years now and League for only the last 2 years (as a captain). Last year my team placed 1st in league play and 2nd in the season ending tournament (16 teams). This year we placed 3rd in league and 2nd in the tournament (33 teams). I was ranked #1 overall (242 players) and all without sandbagging. In league play I don't feel the need for me personally to manage my handicap because it's meant to be fun. Tournament play I feel differently about it. I used to play in a handicapped tournament and would on occasion manage my handicap. I mean, why play great during the season, raise my handicap so high that I would have no chance to win in the final tournament so that a "rookie" would walk away with the prize.
You may not believe in doing it but for some it is just another skill used to win tournaments.
You find that managing your handicap is "cheating" and that is your opinion and I respect that. Some people think that playing a safety is cheating too. I think it's all just part of the game.
Jay
Hi Laura
I'm not familiar with the APA system but I've played in VNEA and BCA. I just wanted to tell you my experience in leagues.
My first year in league was in VNEA. The team really wanted my boyfriend to play, but he was not interested in league. He wanted me to join to gain experience. We all agreed for me to play regularly and have my BF substitute against tough teams. Overall it was a good experience. I learned to play under pressure (The entire room is watching you!)and I enjoyed reviewing my stats every week. Anyway, my teammates gave us an ultimatum to make my BF play because they thought I wasn't good enough, even though I was beating the best players every week.
I never focused on my handicap because it really only matters for the team's standing. Even if I can win money, sandbagging has never been my thing because I'm just trying to play well. If I were playing for your captain, Laura, I would have left by now, or at least complain about it because he would be wasting my time. He can say that it's for the team but why should you sacrifice so much?? You show up and you don't even get to play sometimes.
I'm not trying to tell you to leave, but you might want to think about what your goals are. There's nothing wrong with sitting out or keeping your stats low to benefit the team but not if it upsets you. My BCA team was the lowest ranked team when I joined in the middle of the season. It was already too late to win money, so I focused on winning as many games as possible and keeping my team out of last place. We finished 4th from the last!! It probably meant nothing but I was happy.
I agree with Jjinfla. I wish they would just let you play and forget about your handicap.
I'm not familiar with the APA system but I've played in VNEA and BCA. I just wanted to tell you my experience in leagues.
My first year in league was in VNEA. The team really wanted my boyfriend to play, but he was not interested in league. He wanted me to join to gain experience. We all agreed for me to play regularly and have my BF substitute against tough teams. Overall it was a good experience. I learned to play under pressure (The entire room is watching you!)and I enjoyed reviewing my stats every week. Anyway, my teammates gave us an ultimatum to make my BF play because they thought I wasn't good enough, even though I was beating the best players every week.
I never focused on my handicap because it really only matters for the team's standing. Even if I can win money, sandbagging has never been my thing because I'm just trying to play well. If I were playing for your captain, Laura, I would have left by now, or at least complain about it because he would be wasting my time. He can say that it's for the team but why should you sacrifice so much?? You show up and you don't even get to play sometimes.
I'm not trying to tell you to leave, but you might want to think about what your goals are. There's nothing wrong with sitting out or keeping your stats low to benefit the team but not if it upsets you. My BCA team was the lowest ranked team when I joined in the middle of the season. It was already too late to win money, so I focused on winning as many games as possible and keeping my team out of last place. We finished 4th from the last!! It probably meant nothing but I was happy.
I agree with Jjinfla. I wish they would just let you play and forget about your handicap.
K
Kerry
Guest
Wow, lots of feedback here.
Dave,
You describe an example of a safety battle in 8-ball. Keep in mind that every safe you and your opponent play is supposed to be recorded. These will be subtracted from the total innings. Therefore, your ability to play safes would be reflected in your handicap. I played a great match last week. Here's how it went: I won 5-0 in 1, 2, 0 (break and run), 1, and 3 innings. This adds up to 7 total innings. I played one safe, so make that 6 innings. 6/5 is about 1.2 innings per game, which is a solid 7 score. May teammate who is a 4 played 4 games. She won 3-1 against another 4. She took 24 innings, with 9 safes. This means 15 innings over 4 games, which is 3.75 innings per game. This is probably a solid or strong 4 score. SHe recently went down to a 4 from a 5. Another player won 3 games in 19 innings. No safes. That's 6.3 innings per game. She's a 3. I think all these are fairly accurate and represent the differences in abilities we all have. Keep in mind that the APA is an AMATEUR league. It is intended for D and C players. The league structure falls short when you get up to the 7 level, because there are 7's who are C players and 7's who are A players. They both need the same number of games. I think the 7 skill level is the only really inaccurate one.
Laura,
I hear where you're coming from. Maybe I should consider myself lucky because I play in a pretty good league. My LO is very fair, and has some quality people working for him. There is very little sandbagging in my league, from what I can tell. This makes it a LOT easier to stand up to it, and do things right. You mentioned 7's who would get upset about making a stink over safes. These people would not be looked upon very favorably in my league. Also, we have a handicap review committee, of which I am a part. I generally say nothing about 95% of the people in the league. The ones who play like 6's but are 4's, maybe I'd say they should go up to a 5. Those are rare, though. It sounds like you are playing among a bunch of deceitful people. Maybe you could find a higher quality bunch to play with? Maybe the APA in your area just sucks? Though I suppose if cheating is as rampant as you say, then at least your other league members will be playing at lower than actual handicaps?
Pop and slop wrote:
"You find that managing your handicap is "cheating" and that is your opinion and I respect that."
Actually, Pop, it is also the opinion of the APA, and since that is what we are really talking about here, there really is little room for dispute. Page 31 of the 2003-4 Team manual says: "Intentionally missing shots for the purpose of increasing innings and holding your skill level down to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent is cheating!" This isn't an opinion. It is the rules of the league. If you don't agree with the rules, then go ahead and cheat, but don't try to make it out as some grey area. I don't dispute that some skill is needed to effectively cheat. It's the same type of skill involved in hustling someone into an unfair game. I guess if you want pool skill to encompass negotiating skills, and in the context of the APA-cheating skills, well then, I guess you and I play two different games, but we both call them pool.
And actually, the APA now has over 200,000 memebers, for what that's worth.
Kerry
Dave,
You describe an example of a safety battle in 8-ball. Keep in mind that every safe you and your opponent play is supposed to be recorded. These will be subtracted from the total innings. Therefore, your ability to play safes would be reflected in your handicap. I played a great match last week. Here's how it went: I won 5-0 in 1, 2, 0 (break and run), 1, and 3 innings. This adds up to 7 total innings. I played one safe, so make that 6 innings. 6/5 is about 1.2 innings per game, which is a solid 7 score. May teammate who is a 4 played 4 games. She won 3-1 against another 4. She took 24 innings, with 9 safes. This means 15 innings over 4 games, which is 3.75 innings per game. This is probably a solid or strong 4 score. SHe recently went down to a 4 from a 5. Another player won 3 games in 19 innings. No safes. That's 6.3 innings per game. She's a 3. I think all these are fairly accurate and represent the differences in abilities we all have. Keep in mind that the APA is an AMATEUR league. It is intended for D and C players. The league structure falls short when you get up to the 7 level, because there are 7's who are C players and 7's who are A players. They both need the same number of games. I think the 7 skill level is the only really inaccurate one.
Laura,
I hear where you're coming from. Maybe I should consider myself lucky because I play in a pretty good league. My LO is very fair, and has some quality people working for him. There is very little sandbagging in my league, from what I can tell. This makes it a LOT easier to stand up to it, and do things right. You mentioned 7's who would get upset about making a stink over safes. These people would not be looked upon very favorably in my league. Also, we have a handicap review committee, of which I am a part. I generally say nothing about 95% of the people in the league. The ones who play like 6's but are 4's, maybe I'd say they should go up to a 5. Those are rare, though. It sounds like you are playing among a bunch of deceitful people. Maybe you could find a higher quality bunch to play with? Maybe the APA in your area just sucks? Though I suppose if cheating is as rampant as you say, then at least your other league members will be playing at lower than actual handicaps?
Pop and slop wrote:
"You find that managing your handicap is "cheating" and that is your opinion and I respect that."
Actually, Pop, it is also the opinion of the APA, and since that is what we are really talking about here, there really is little room for dispute. Page 31 of the 2003-4 Team manual says: "Intentionally missing shots for the purpose of increasing innings and holding your skill level down to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent is cheating!" This isn't an opinion. It is the rules of the league. If you don't agree with the rules, then go ahead and cheat, but don't try to make it out as some grey area. I don't dispute that some skill is needed to effectively cheat. It's the same type of skill involved in hustling someone into an unfair game. I guess if you want pool skill to encompass negotiating skills, and in the context of the APA-cheating skills, well then, I guess you and I play two different games, but we both call them pool.
And actually, the APA now has over 200,000 memebers, for what that's worth.
Kerry
Kerry,
Excellent explanation! The system puzzles better players because we fail to see where we would accurately fit into the rating system, but then again, the system was not made for us, so I should shut up about it. I don't want anyone to think I am against leagues. As a former room owner, I had leagues four nights a week, which kept the vendor of my coin ops extremely happy. Leagues are a lot of fun and a great place to start, and maintain your skill. It doesn't matter which league system you belong to, as long as you are having fun. When I had my own room, my leagues helped my business substantially. When supporting the sport of pool, it all starts with leagues and tournaments at the local level.
Excellent explanation! The system puzzles better players because we fail to see where we would accurately fit into the rating system, but then again, the system was not made for us, so I should shut up about it. I don't want anyone to think I am against leagues. As a former room owner, I had leagues four nights a week, which kept the vendor of my coin ops extremely happy. Leagues are a lot of fun and a great place to start, and maintain your skill. It doesn't matter which league system you belong to, as long as you are having fun. When I had my own room, my leagues helped my business substantially. When supporting the sport of pool, it all starts with leagues and tournaments at the local level.
K
Kerry
Guest
Blackjack,
I'm glad you see where I'm coming from. I think B players and above should just expect to be 7's in 8-ball. The 9 ball skill levels go from 1-9. I am currently an 8. I think it would take a B+ type of player to stand up as a 9. Any A player should expect to be a 9, however. If you don't care much for the 8-Ball handicaps, you'd HATE the 9-ball league. First of all, what regular 9-ball player would ever imagine making every single 9-ball and horribly losing the match?? In the APA, you get 1 point per ball and 2 for the 9-ball. SL-1's go to 14 balls while SL-9's go to 75!! It sounds like a lot, but it really isn't so aweful. You must adjust your game a bit, particularly when playing a much lower rated palyer. I played a 1 the other week. What a nail biter!! It was a 65-14 race. As you can see, every time she runs 2 balls, I have to run a rack. Still, if I couldn't do that I wouldn't be an 8. The biggest thing is that you must be careful on the break. You really must not scratch ever, but particularly on the break. Every ball in hand is at least 1 or 2 balls for the opponent. LOTS of safeties. Anyway, I won the match by 1 ball, 65-13. Now if that isn't an even race, I don't know what is. Now I know everyone has their ups and downs. Sometimes I'll run 30 balls in a row, sometimes I have trouble with 3 or 4. But on the average run, I can be counted on to run several and not leave my opponent too much. So it averages out that I'm an 8. I generally prefer regular 9-ball, but APA 9-ball is a fun game too, like straight pool by 9-ball rules. Another crappy thing is no push outs. These types of things have lead to a HUGE improvement in my break. I realized that control is the key, and getting shape on the low ball. I didn't think about this so much before playing APA 9-ball. Now my break in all games is much improved (thanks in part to the great article you posted a little while back!!). So this is an example of something positive I got out of the APA, even though I rarely if ever get an even match. That's what the tourneys are for!!
Laura,
I see that you don't have much choice about sandbagging in your current situation. Like Ruby said, I would have been out of there a while ago. I hope things improve. One nice thing--if anyone on your team goes up 2 full skill levels once you get to Vegas, or if some number of people on the team go up a total of I think 4 full skill levels, your whole team gets booted. Its sort of like a "pay me now or pay me later" situation. Good luck with a less than ideal situation--don't let it keep your game down.
Kerry
I'm glad you see where I'm coming from. I think B players and above should just expect to be 7's in 8-ball. The 9 ball skill levels go from 1-9. I am currently an 8. I think it would take a B+ type of player to stand up as a 9. Any A player should expect to be a 9, however. If you don't care much for the 8-Ball handicaps, you'd HATE the 9-ball league. First of all, what regular 9-ball player would ever imagine making every single 9-ball and horribly losing the match?? In the APA, you get 1 point per ball and 2 for the 9-ball. SL-1's go to 14 balls while SL-9's go to 75!! It sounds like a lot, but it really isn't so aweful. You must adjust your game a bit, particularly when playing a much lower rated palyer. I played a 1 the other week. What a nail biter!! It was a 65-14 race. As you can see, every time she runs 2 balls, I have to run a rack. Still, if I couldn't do that I wouldn't be an 8. The biggest thing is that you must be careful on the break. You really must not scratch ever, but particularly on the break. Every ball in hand is at least 1 or 2 balls for the opponent. LOTS of safeties. Anyway, I won the match by 1 ball, 65-13. Now if that isn't an even race, I don't know what is. Now I know everyone has their ups and downs. Sometimes I'll run 30 balls in a row, sometimes I have trouble with 3 or 4. But on the average run, I can be counted on to run several and not leave my opponent too much. So it averages out that I'm an 8. I generally prefer regular 9-ball, but APA 9-ball is a fun game too, like straight pool by 9-ball rules. Another crappy thing is no push outs. These types of things have lead to a HUGE improvement in my break. I realized that control is the key, and getting shape on the low ball. I didn't think about this so much before playing APA 9-ball. Now my break in all games is much improved (thanks in part to the great article you posted a little while back!!). So this is an example of something positive I got out of the APA, even though I rarely if ever get an even match. That's what the tourneys are for!!
Laura,
I see that you don't have much choice about sandbagging in your current situation. Like Ruby said, I would have been out of there a while ago. I hope things improve. One nice thing--if anyone on your team goes up 2 full skill levels once you get to Vegas, or if some number of people on the team go up a total of I think 4 full skill levels, your whole team gets booted. Its sort of like a "pay me now or pay me later" situation. Good luck with a less than ideal situation--don't let it keep your game down.
Kerry
P
Pop And Slop
Guest
Bluewolf said: