Getting the cue on the line of aim
- Thread starter z0nt0n3r
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It's not ignorant. It's the result of experience and a basic understanding of our anatomy. It's ignorant to ignore the human anatomy and the way that our eyes take in information. Physical eye dominance has to do with the nerves that reach back from the eyes to the brain. Some of those nerves criss-cross and some go straight back. The dominant eye has more nerves that go straight back to the brain, thus the information that it gathers gets to the brain faster than the recessive eye. The severity of eye dominance is based on the difference between those nerves that go back to the brain. The more severe the difference between the two eyes, the more severe the eye dominance. That is not going to change.
I keep stressing here the importance of acknowledging our anatomy in our game. The dominant eye may not see the line of the shot perfectly. You may have to adapt your aim a bit. But if you're going to ignore it, then there will be consequences. Maybe not immediately, but in the long run. I don't do ignorant. Maybe you do.
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Fran, pardon me if you've been over all this before. If so, maybe you have a link handy. I settled on a non-dominant eye alignment that works well, but it seems to me I could have chosen almost any eye alignment. I chose what I did because it allowed my upper arm to be in alignment with the shot. I know at times I might miss due to the dominant eye trying to take over. I think you've said as much in the past, IIRC. (Maybe for every one such miss there are 100 misses due to a stroke problem)? Mark Wilson advocates to center the chin over the cue because this is an easy reference point and is repeatable. Do you think this kind of thing is wrong?
You can shoot that way if you want but I think you will be in constant conflict with your dominant eye trying to take over, particularly if it's severe. You may even find that your cue suddenly winds up under it without your even realizing that it drifted over. You will work harder and tire more easily since you will be fighting your anatomy. However, if your dominant eye isn't a strong dominant eye, you have a decent shot of training yourself to stay closer to the center --- meaning placing the cue closer to the center of your face. Don't rule out stance adjustments as part of this equation.
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phreaticus
Well-known member
Fran, I'm not spoiling for a fight, or even too interested in "debating" with you, as I'm not even sure what your point is, and you didn't bother to address specific info that was provided regarding center vision, which frankly smacks of both intentional ignorance and arrogance - which is even worse. I certainly wasn't suggesting to ignore eye dominance, nor was anyone else as far as I can tell. I also think we're not too far off in our views - certainly everyone has a unique physical anatomy and "going with the flow" to some extent is good advice vs "fighting it" - however, that also includes our internal cognitive/proprioception physiology, which is less commonly understood, discussed and taught. That paradigm is actually a slippery slope, as "what feels good", or "what comes natural" - is in fact not always correct/best. Leaning forward in your boots in skis when staring down the face of a double black run - is not by any means natural/comfortable, good luck with leaning back which is the body's natural approach - just a somewhat silly example. Some activities and new techniques DO need to fight our natural physical/mental approaches to things. Once new neural pathways are burnt, it can become the new natural, subconscious behavior (or so called muscle memory), but such things do take dedication and much reps - and thus are not easily packed into a 1 hour or 1 day instructional session.
Eye dominance is obviously a major component of the sum total of our binocular vision (aka center vision) and for many/most folks with typical eye dominance ratios, the physical differences between aligning to ones center vision vs simply under one's strong eye - will be very minor, and I agree folks can adjust and work around many such things. I think (but am not sure), that your primary point here - is that folks are best off to just go with aligning under their dominant eye, since it will "pull you in anyway" - I've not experienced that, and while your descriptions of how the dom eye works - are mostly fine, you are ignoring other, equally important aspects of human vision/proprioception/cognition - its not strictly a visual thing and is not easily summarized by lay persons chatting on a forum.
In any case, alignment under strong eye is just fine with me - as I expressed in my previous note, there are clear examples of different visual/physical alignment techniques from many respected pros etc, and all appear to work. I personally feel the difference between understanding one's center vision line vs one's dominant eye line - can be thought of as simply further refining ones alignment from the dominant eye line - to be even more connected with one's internal visual processing system, vs needing to be a "slave" only to dominant eye - as your total vision is not entirely driven by it, and new visual skills can in fact be learned. But reasonable folks can disagree, and exchange technical concepts, yes? It may depend on how much the student wants to put into the game. Some pro shooters learn how to even shift eye dominance with shooting offhand (talking guns, not pool - but it works great in pool also, if one is really dedicated to improving one's offhand game).
What I was responding to was the fact that earlier in this thread you were clearly denigrating the entire concept of center vision, implying that it was just something made up by some pool instructors - that's simply just not the case, and I provided some objective info on the concept on how binocular vision actually works for those interested. There does seem to be lack of definition around center vision, and I was simply trying to contribute info to resolve that problem. You seem to have a short fuse for any info that differs from your own, which as I also mentioned, is a classic sign of instructor-itis. While, I'm not a pool instructor, I have taught high level activities and often what happens with professional instructors (of any kind) - is that they get biased to what's easier or more efficient - either for them to teach or for their students to learn - nothing wrong with that, especially for more junior students with limited time/resources. But it doesn't necessarily encompass all relevant info on a subject, nor does it always connote "best" for all students.
This is not meant to be disrespectful in any way. Cheers
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The vision center concept agrees with you. In fact, it's explicitly based on eye dominance and its variability - that's why it doesn't prescribe the same head/cue position for everybody.
pj
chgo
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Not if some players wind up with their cues under their recessive eyes. And while we're at it, let's all reinvent the wheel and give it a new name and take credit for it as a new invention. Isn't that the trend these days?
if you separate you posts into more paragraphs it would be much easier to read
just sayin
phreaticus
Well-known member
I don't think Dave is trying to claim credit for the vision center idea, just trying to "package" it in an attractive and understandable way for the many players (of many levels) he reaches with his online info. I bet you two are in more agreement on this topic than you think. I've spent some time with him (just hanging out) and I bet you'd like him.
pj
chgo
thanks....
you have alot to offer
i have learned alot
some people may not get past the first few sentences
I'll watch out for that. I've been playing this way for a number of years and "drifting" back doesn't seem to be a problem. When I get down on a shot without thinking about anything it is my right eye over the cue, not the dominant left. Maybe it is because I know what "correct" looks and feels like in my PSR that the left eye doesn't take over.
... and it's "vision center" not "center vision."
Well, assuming that you don't have any eye pathologies, I think you are one of two I've come across who played with the cue under his recessive eye for a decent length of time. The other eventually did have problems, and I don't know if he decided to change his cue position or if he managed to stay that way. At this point, I can't really assess your situation without spending time at the table with you. There may be other issues that might show up from watching you close-up. Stance is a big factor too. If you're able to play that way and are satisfied, that's all that counts.
One thing I can say is that if I keep my elbow rock solid then I almost can't miss. When I do miss it is usually accompanied by an elbow drop. Maybe I drop the elbow at a funny angle due to the eye position. Hard to say I guess.
Absolutely
Did you find an immediate improvement after finding the vision center?
Yes. For a few reasons. I have a very dominant left eye. Its so dominant that I basically see diagonal out of it. There are a whole range of shots (mainly to the left) that I shoot directly into the rail when using my dominant eye. With genos methods I would shoot to the right with my left eye and to the left with my right eye. This did a lot towards fixing hitting balls into the rail but it never completely cured it.
Before using Genos methods I would have to warm up and 're-learn' how to aim every day for an hour or two before I would play even close to decent and there were always random misses a couple diamonds from the pocket in the same spot I had missed the shot 100xs before. After Genos methods I would warm up every day before playing and do this:
1. Medium length straight in shots for about 5 minutes
2. A cut long but relatively flat cut shot to the right for about 5 minutes.
3. Progressively hit a long cut shot to the left a little thinner every try.
The cuts to the right in #2 never really gave me much trouble. But the cuts to the left in (3) I tend to aim right into the rail. After doing it for a while I would home in my aim for the day.
So after finding my vision center I am able to do (2) and (3) very well off the bat. Cutting balls that are relatively straight and to the left straight into the rail doesn't seem to happen very much any more.
Another good thing about using vision center (for me at least) is my vision center is under my right eye. This means I am no longer have to align like I am cross dominant. This means I dont have to contort my body as much when setting up and my stroke is more accurate because of this. I also think in the long run this might help prevent potential back problems I was worried about occuring.
In addition to the vision center I am now using linearity center ball CIT adjustment from SAWS for center ball shots. This has made my center ball shots into the side pockets and longer ones into the corner pockets much more accurate.
I am also using gearing english very often using the BHE/FHE combination from SAWS with a Z-3 shaft. This alone had a huge improvement on my game before I changed to vision center.
For english shots that are not gearing I use linearity throw adjustment and BHE/FHE combination. For outside english I look if the shot is more or less than gearing and compensate for throw to undercut or overcut accordingly to linearity (and some feel of course). For inside english I do the same thing but concentrate more on the angle than the amount of english.
When doing the FHE/BHE pivot I do the pivot in the air before going down on the shot. This seems keep me from messing up my fundamentals which happens when pivoting while down.
Anyways I made wholesale changes to how I was aiming and it had a huge effect on consistency. There are other things I changed as well which I won't go into here.
To put it in simpler words I was cueing under left eye for shots to the right and right eye for shots to the left and prefering center ball for most shots. Now I am cueing under vision center for all shots, using FHE/BHE for most english shots, prefering gearing english when possible/practical, and compensating for throw using linearity concept taught in SAWS.
People have told me that I have gotten suddenly better. The other day I won a tournament by not losing a single game and winning 14 games in a row. I have never even come close to doing this before.
Of course there are some downsides to all of this once in a while I will misjudge the gearing and dog a shot I could have fired in with centerball and probably not missed but what i gain in pocketing consistency from using gearing often is probably outweighted 3:1 over prefering center ball just off the fact that the balls can be hit so much lighter and the aiming seems much more natural. This is especally true in ohio pool rooms in the summer which get quite humid. Also when the cloth was changed and new I would just tear it up because center ball seems to be much more effective in those conditions than when the cloth is worn in. Then the cloth would wear in and I would start having more and more trouble potting shots and controlling the cue ball.
I knew for a long time (like 20 years now) that my aiming was not very good. I kept hearing the same stuff from other players that they learn from instructors that the stroke is why we miss shots, not aim, but I never completely bought it because my misses were not random. I have tried several aiming systems in the past and they pretty much have done nothing for me probably because with my dominant eye I see diagonally. The only two that gave me any noticable improvement were Genos (from which I had significant improvement) and Dr Dave's SAWS (from which i had a ton of improvement).
It's amazing that I could play as well as I could when using my dominant eye. The problem was it was far from consistent. Some rare days I would have it and other days I would be undercutting everything into the rail. I attribute this to on those rare days I happened to be getting many shots that I was actually able to aim properly and not many problem shots, just out of random luck. Genos method made me consistent from day to day but there were still many problem shots I couldn't figure out. Now with SAWS and vision center there are not many problem shots left that are not long and on the harder side.
When playing the ghost I think I learned how to set up for shots that were not on my problem shot list (don't we all...) to avoid the aim problems.
I have the kranicki book and from reading it and knowning about vision center (which isnt correctly addressed in the book) and from watching a former touring pro who happens to play in the room I frequent I have been able to figure out a aiming technique that I have seen him use. He is known for being able to slice balls down the long rail thin and at warp speed. My friend and I had never been able to figure out what he was doing. He brought it up to me a few weeks ago and I messed around with it and never was able to satisfactorly understand what and why he was doing what he was doing. After reading this book I think I (finally) have it figured out and once I understand it better I will post about it. It seems to be an aiming method I have never seen addressed at all online and with it I can now hit balls significantly thinner than ever before even at a distance.
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Thanks for the thorough reply. The bold caught my attention. I'm not an instructor, so maybe the bold is more common than I realize, but I'm assuming you "naturally" lined up under the left and right eyes depending on the shot, as you indicate. You say your vision center is under your right eye even though you are left eye dominant and you use that for all shots now. What was the transition like for those shots where you used to line up under your left eye?