Getting the cue on the line of aim

FranCrimi said:
They are encouraged through this system to place their cue somewhere else. So what does this system really accomplish other than to reinforce dominant eye placement for some and lead others astray?
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I'm not really in a position to say you don't get it since I have barely looked at this till this thread caught my eye, but...you don't get it. Based purely on the text shared by PJ, it pretty clearly states the system encourages to put the cue where straight looks straight. For some under the dom. eye looks straight, for others (me included) it doesn't, so I cue where it looks straight for me. In no way would I ever consider cuing where straight looks straight as being led astray lol.

I tried switching over to my dominant and, in my case, much stronger eye and everything looked absolutely wrong. Straight wasn't straight. I know this could be from years spent playing the other way and that the way I see the game could just be 1000s of hours of subconscious adjustments (like the guy in the shared vid who saw the same angle differently from either side of the table before switching to looking over the cue where str8 looks str8)...I play the same angles regardless of which side I am viewing them from so I guess somewhere along the way I stumbled upon sighting where straight looks straight. It just makes sense to cue up where your perception of str8 matches up with actual str8 alignment.

If you think everyone should be under their dom. eye even if that isn't where they see str8 from, just bc that's how you see str8, and think having guys cue up where str8 shots look str8 is leading them astray, then, I'm sorry to say, you have probably led a great number of your students astray with your "nonsense" :p
 
straightline said:
I can't quite envision it but I see your point. Also having that dialed in and locked stance probably requires accurate pre - alignment of the stick. However you actually shoot, the alignment problem is the reason I started with connect the dots aiming.
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My stick is up in the air as I'm approaching the shot and tip is actually pointing left of the line of aim but my grip hand is on the line of aim and so is my vision center. As I'm going down the bridge hand moves the tip onto the aim line, my cue swings in the air past the CB and then back of CB with my elbow pointing up. One of the main pitfalls can be tilting of the head.
 
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Wolven said:
My stick is up in the air as I'm approaching the shot and tip is actually pointing left of the line of shot but my grip hand is on the line of shot and so is my vision center. As I'm going down the bridge hand moves the tip onto the shot line, my cue swings in the air past the CB and then back of CB with my elbow pointing up. One of the main pitfalls can be tilting of the head.
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Interesting you should mention the pre sweep. I forget the teachers name - German guy, well respected, lots of well thought out Ytube lessons - teaches locating the hip and shooting hand to the shot then pivoting and landing in stance. I remember watching Swanee and he did this massive pivot - looked like an industrial drum rotating. Obviously it works. I don't do that. It presumes the landing will be in spec. Sure gymnasts, dancers, divers all have developed this ability but it adds too much uncertainty - blind faith if you will, to the act of shooting. If you're a non-misser, knock yourself out. :D

What I do to locate the stick line is to hold the stick above the shot line and lower it to center ball. This works because I center the cue to my face/nose. I avoid parallax distortion by simply letting my vision go double. This provides two really convenient parallel stick images that at least for me, center symmetrically over the cue ball. This is usually good enough to nail the shot.
 
straightline said:
Interesting you should mention the pre sweep. I forget the teachers name - German guy, well respected, lots of well thought out Ytube lessons - teaches locating the hip and shooting hand to the shot then pivoting and landing in stance. I remember watching Swanee and he did this massive pivot - looked like an industrial drum rotating. Obviously it works. I don't do that. It presumes the landing will be in spec. Sure gymnasts, dancers, divers all have developed this ability but it adds too much uncertainty - blind faith if you will, to the act of shooting. If you're a non-misser, knock yourself out. :D

What I do to locate the stick line is to hold the stick above the shot line and lower it to center ball. This works because I center the cue to my face/nose. I avoid parallax distortion by simply letting my vision go double. This provides two really convenient parallel stick images that at least for me, center symmetrically over the cue ball. This is usually good enough to nail the shot.
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I really would like to see the German guy, can you look in your youtube history? :)
I will play tomorrow, so I will give your way a try.
 
bbb said:
fran
how many players over your lifetime have you seen hold the cue DIRECTLY under one eye or the other?
my guess is very few if any
if my guess is correct
the reason players have their cue somewhere between their nose and the pupil of one eye or the other (except for players who have the cue directly under the middle of their chin and have their nose pointed along the cue shaft line...which i think are in the minority)
its because thats where the balance of info to their brain from their dominat eye and "inferior " eye equals out
to let them "see straight"
thats their vision center head position
assuming they use 2 eyes to aim and shoot
that book i referenced above although he recommends some thing different from vision center
how he explains how we "see" is interesting to consider
jmho
you thoughts always welcome.....:)
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On the dominant side of the nose? Plenty. In fact, the only cases out of the multitudes of private lessons I gave where the placement was on the recessive side were where there was an eye pathology involved and the player either was nearly blind or had other medical issues with their dominant eye. I never said anything about everyone placing it directly under the dominant eye. How far past the nose on the dominant side depends on the severity of the eye dominance, which is pretty easy to determine. Some players are lucky to have a very slight dominant eye which allows them to see with the cue pretty darn close to exact center. But the key to what I'm saying is acknowledging the role of the dominant eye in cue placement. Saying it doesn't matter is irresponsible.

Okay, that's it for me now..... You'll believe what you all want to believe. Time to move on. It kind of reminds me of when I suggested that the Filipino stroke (which you were all calling a piston stroke at the time) was a continuous stroke, and everyone went nuts. IMPOSSIBLE! They all said. Every stroke has a pause at the back no matter how small it is. But then I pointed out that there was no back stroke/forward stroke transition. It's a continuous loop. Hmmmmmm....
 
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Fran
I think in many ways you are in agreement with the vision center people but in disagreement with the semantics
TomAYto vs tomAHto
My understanding of your position is
You agree players tend to put the cue towards their dominant eye not under but dont want to call that place “vision center”
Where you and the vision center proponents disagree is for you if the position the player prefers is on the non dominant eye side of the nose
( which i would think is rare given no major physical problem)
You believe you as the instructor
You should over ride his tendency and get him over to the dominant eye side
Regardless if he sees straight there or not
Because his dominant eye is dominant
I hope what i have said is correct
 
Wolven said:
I really would like to see the German guy, can you look in your youtube history? :)
I will play tomorrow, so I will give your way a try.
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Yeah his name is Ralph Eckert. I feel stupid I should know his name by heart. Peruse his channel. Tons of information. I'll try and find the stance video.
 
bbb said:
Fran
I think in many ways you are in agreement with the vision center people but in disagreement with the semantics
TomAYto vs tomAHto
My understanding of your position is
You agree players tend to put the cue towards their dominant eye not under but dont want to call that place “vision center”
Where you and the vision center proponents disagree is for you if the position the player prefers is on the non dominant eye side of the nose
( which i would think is rare given no major physical problem)
You believe you as the instructor
You should over ride his tendency and get him over to the dominant eye side
Regardless if he sees straight there or not
Because his dominant eye is dominant
I hope what i have said is correct.
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No. That's not correct at all. I appreciate that you're attempting to understand what I'm saying but I think it's time for me to move on to another subject. I'll reserve any future discussions on this subject for players who I'm helping in person.
 
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FranCrimi said:
No. That's not correct at all. I appreciate that you're attempting to understand what I'm saying but I think it's time for me to move on to another subject. I'll reserve any future discussions on this subject for players who I'm helping in person.
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thank you for your reply fran.
i respect your decision.
 
FranCrimi said:
Seriously? You don't know? Who said [dominant eye] matters besides me? You?
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Patrick Johnson said:
Dr. Dave and me, for a couple of examples.
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FranCrimi said:
That's not true. You're playing with words. It's not cool to do that.
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Really?

Patrick Johnson said:
...the dominant eye is the major influence, and the vision center is usually closer to the dominant eye
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Patrick Johnson said:
Quoting Dr. Dave:

"Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye (e.g., if they have strong eye dominance and/or vision impairment in the other eye). For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere else between (or even outside of) their eyes."
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Who's playing here, me or you?

pj
chgo
 
FranCrimi said:
It kind of reminds me of when I suggested that the Filipino stroke (which you were all calling a piston stroke at the time) was a continuous stroke, and everyone went nuts. IMPOSSIBLE! They all said. Every stroke has a pause at the back no matter how small it is. But then I pointed out that there was no back stroke/forward stroke transition. It's a continuous loop. Hmmmmmm....
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Can you (or anyone for that matter) link this thread? I agree with you by the way, bc when it was taught to me it was taught as a fluid loop...though final delivery gets its power from its stillness (if you know, then you know but that's all I'm sayin for free lol). Would be an interesting read.
 
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