Ghost Ball Aiming System= Wrong

P

pro-player

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For every shot that there is an angle, there is throw on the object ball. If there is throw, then aiming exactly at the "contact point" where the ghost ball was should cause you to miss. This is also the explanation why balls can "bend" or find their way to a hole when it seems that the shot is blocked just barely by an impeding edge of another object ball. The more angle there is, the more throw or bend. This is precisely why it is possible to execute a 90 degree cut on a ball. In order to do this successfully, you have to aim a bit thicker on the object ball then you would if you were aiming at a ghost ball. Aim exactly at the ghost ball, and you will skim the object ball very thin, overcutting it.

This is also precisely why there is no 100% accurate aiming system. Aiming systems cannot measure throw or bend. Knowing how to aim is done by feel and routine, which is achieved through years of experience.

Hope this helps!
 
I agree that the gb system isn't exact, but I don't think most people consider it to be (could be wrong, though!).

In my experience, the gb method is for two audiences: total newbies who don't even understand the concept of finding cut angles and experienced players who use it loosely in their overall preshot routine. for instance, i use it loosely when kicking to an object ball if the ob needs to be cut. it's easier to view the necessary kick angles if i imagine the cue ball in the ghost positiion.

you're totally correct in that you can't -- with the popular version of the ghost ball system -- account for throw, etc.

each shot has nearly an infinite number of variable elements that can (and do) affect the outcome of the shot. the gb method helps newbies reduce the range of error on many of those variables, though.

with experience, most people realize that it isn't an end-all, be-all system, but another visualization tool to help us imagine the path our cue ball needs to take.
 
pro-player said:
For every shot that there is an angle, there is throw on the object ball. If there is throw, then aiming exactly at the "contact point" where the ghost ball was should cause you to miss. This is also the explanation why balls can "bend" or find their way to a hole when it seems that the shot is blocked just barely by an impeding edge of another object ball."

Just curious, Are you saying the object ball curves around an impeding ball?

"The more angle there is, the more throw or bend. This is precisely why it is possible to execute a 90 degree cut on a ball. In order to do this successfully, you have to aim a bit thicker on the object ball then you would if you were aiming at a ghost ball. Aim exactly at the ghost ball, and you will skim the object ball very thin, overcutting it."
Please explain, how does hitting the 90% contact point cause the overcut?

This is also precisely why there is no 100% accurate aiming system. Aiming systems cannot measure throw or bend.
Yes the players experience measure the throw.

"Knowing how to aim is done by feel and routine, which is achieved through years of experience."
Yes,
But can be speeded up tremendously if one had an accurate method of aiming. One in which the player knew the exact object ball contact point and more importantly if they new the EXACT point of contact on the cue ball that they were aiming at the object ball with.
Most of us consciously look at the object balls contact point and then subconsciously pick out the part of the cue ball we're actually sending at that point. If you train a player to pick out this spot on the cue ball before they bend over to shoot, they will then have two exact points to keep lined up while approaching the shot and will feel more like they're aiming an arrow rather than two round objects. And of course then there's the learning curve compensating for deflection, curve and throw which is definately harder to speed up than improving ones aim or perception of aim.
There are ways to speed up the learning process rather than just saying it takes years to learn how to be accurate.

Joe T,
Loves to speed up other peoples progress.
Click to expand...
 
When a ball "bends" it doesn't curve around an impeding ball. I can't explain the motion in words, you are best to have an experienced player show you an example of "bending" object balls. All I can say is the ball slides in a certain direction for a millisecond, then takes off in the direction you aimed.

For the 90 degree cut shot, try it yourself. In fact, just look at the shot and you will see that where the ghost ball is, that is not the correct place to aim. There is no way at 90 degrees to contact that exact point where the ghost ball is and have your object ball move more than an inch. That is just too thin. Notice to make the shot, you have to aim a little bit thicker, and you don't have to apply outside english to the CB to spin the OB in.
 
With proper instruction, anyone can learn the game faster. Being accurate, however, is not only in how you aim, but in how accurate your stroke is. A good stroke takes years to develop.
 
Isn't any aiming system just merely an aproximation?

I mean every aiming system will assume frictionless cloth, no deflection or throw, no english...It has to assume impossibly perfect conditions, otherwise the math/geometry wouldn't work.
 
Sometimes aiming is intuitive, you get the feel for the shot especially where banking is concerned and damn the "geometry".
 
Last edited:
kokopuffs said:
Sometimes aiming is intuition, you get the feel for the shot especially where banking is concerned.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The correct way to aim is by feel, which is comes with experience. Everything else (aiming systems) is more of a distraction than a tool to any intermediate and above player.
 
Good posts Pro Player. I do agree with some of the other posters here too in that you need a frame of reference to aim. But, practice or just experience hitting the balls is what really teaches you where to hit the balls. When you say "bend" I think of "throw" or "spin". I have often used that technique to make a ball that is slightly blocked by the edge of another ball. This is a shot that definitely separates players in terms of skill level.

I've seen a lot of pros, when faced with a tough shot, check the spot for the ghost ball on the object ball. It's just a frame of reference. Most shots, they rely on their experience where to aim.
 
I agree it would be a distraction if you didn't believe in it or someone told you to aim at the light reflections or to measure out the exact angles and try to recall the answer to that particular angle and length of shot. But it adds confidence and consistency if and when it becomes quick and automatic to knowing the answer ahead of time.
Let me say I can see your point of view when it comes to aiming systems. I for one am very upset that we really haven't had a successful way to pass on our method of aim to one another. I went through years of frustration thinking there must be a better way than just shooting 8 hrs a day.

When Mosconi was asked to explain how he aimed, his reply was
" I look at the contact point and then pick out the matching contact point on the cue ball, I then try to keep those two points lined up as I fall on the shot. If I feel I've done that, I shoot. If I feel I didn't keep those two points lined up, I get up and start over."
He was a master at picking out both contact points consciously before getting down on the shot, he knew the Answers.

And I can help any player in the WORLD that has at least 1 shot they really don't like, or are inconsistent with or don't have a feel for. With an aiming system that gives them the exact Answer. Oops, never say exact (it would be exact on paper and easy to learn) No matter what level they play at.

I've found that 99% of us players aim as you say, by feel (as I did for years, I've been on both sides of the coin) and just as your natural feel or perception can be correct it can also be naturally incorrect and you won't know why. Hence the expression "I just can't see this type of shot"
I've found this is mostly due to a player incorrect perception of the front part of the cue ball. The part of the shot that does all the work and a part that nobody ever seems to talk about. We can all see the object balls contact point (hopefully) but then when we get down we start to subconsciously start to aim or feel the cue ball to that contact point and we aren't consciously aware of what we're doing (this is a main cause for players steering shots). I teach and use a method of aim that helps improve a players ability to automatically pick out that contact point on the front part of the cue ball (the part they can't see while in the shooting position) and to line up the shot properly (contact point to contact point) before getting down and when they shoot they know exactly why the made or missed the shot and have a faster way to improve upon their errors or reinforce their successes.
It's quick (once learned), doesn't require memorization of angles and is based on facts not feel. Knowing the answers before and after a shot can add tremendous confidence to a players game which in turn also speeds up the learning process and stroke skills (which is a different subject).
Joe T
 
Joe T said:
I agree it would be a distraction if you didn't believe in it or someone told you to aim at the light reflections or to measure out the exact angles and try to recall the answer to that particular angle and length of shot. But it adds confidence and consistency if and when it becomes quick and automatic to knowing the answer ahead of time.
Let me say I can see your point of view when it comes to aiming systems. I for one am very upset that we really haven't had a successful way to pass on our method of aim to one another. I went through years of frustration thinking there must be a better way than just shooting 8 hrs a day.

When Mosconi was asked to explain how he aimed, his reply was
" I look at the contact point and then pick out the matching contact point on the cue ball, I then try to keep those two points lined up as I fall on the shot. If I feel I've done that, I shoot. If I feel I didn't keep those two points lined up, I get up and start over."
He was a master at picking out both contact points consciously before getting down on the shot, he knew the Answers.

And I can help any player in the WORLD that has at least 1 shot they really don't like, or are inconsistent with or don't have a feel for. With an aiming system that gives them the exact Answer. Oops, never say exact (it would be exact on paper and easy to learn) No matter what level they play at.

I've found that 99% of us players aim as you say, by feel (as I did for years, I've been on both sides of the coin) and just as your natural feel or perception can be correct it can also be naturally incorrect and you won't know why. Hence the expression "I just can't see this type of shot"
I've found this is mostly due to a player incorrect perception of the front part of the cue ball. The part of the shot that does all the work and a part that nobody ever seems to talk about. We can all see the object balls contact point (hopefully) but then when we get down we start to subconsciously start to aim or feel the cue ball to that contact point and we aren't consciously aware of what we're doing (this is a main cause for players steering shots). I teach and use a method of aim that helps improve a players ability to automatically pick out that contact point on the front part of the cue ball (the part they can't see while in the shooting position) and to line up the shot properly (contact point to contact point) before getting down and when they shoot they know exactly why the made or missed the shot and have a faster way to improve upon their errors or reinforce their successes.
It's quick (once learned), doesn't require memorization of angles and is based on facts not feel. Knowing the answers before and after a shot can add tremendous confidence to a players game which in turn also speeds up the learning process and stroke skills (which is a different subject).
Joe T
Click to expand...

That was a good post, and I feel that you have a very valid point. However, I have always felt that the main reason why most players miss simple shots is because of faulty mechanics, not incorrect aiming. I believe that aiming is not as big a part of the game as some may claim it is. For example, why does anyone miss a dead straight-in shot? Certainly they are not aiming incorrectly, anyone knows where to aim on a straight-shot. All you have to do is aim straight. What prevents people from making this shot? It is usually fault mechanics; maybe they twist their wrist, maybe they get up too soon, maybe they drop their elbow, or maybe they lined up wrong. If everyone who plays pool was able to shoot the cueball at exactly what they are aiming at, pool would be a much easier game. If this were possible, to learn how to aim correctly would take 5 or 10 trial-and-error shots. The reason why pool is such a tough game to master is, nobody can pick up a cue for the first time, and run a rack of 9-ball. Nobody can draw the cueball the length of the table minutes after learning that aiming low makes the cueball come back. The stroke must developed over time, you must develop a feel for it. When you are in stroke, the cue ball feels like it is weightless, you can draw it as far as you like without any effort, and you automatically know where to aim for every shot. When you are out of stroke, the cueball feels like a dead weight, and all of a sudden you can't see how to play position, and you are guessing on your aim for certain shots. That's the way pool is, you get a feel for it, you can do anything. You lose that feel, you can't do much. When you get out of stroke, and resort to some aiming system, it's not going to help you much. You are not out of stroke because your aim is off, you are out of stroke because you are out of stroke. You miss balls not because of incorrect aim, but because you are not hitting the cueball good. You are getting a negative feedback everytime you strike the cueball, and when you are in stroke, you get a positive feedback, a feeling of complete control. That's what pool is inside it's inner-shell. An outsider's point of view would claim that pool is all geometry, you just aim and shoot. It's much more than that.
 
Joe T said:
And I can help any player in the WORLD that has at least 1 shot they really don't like, or are inconsistent with or don't have a feel for. With an aiming system that gives them the exact Answer. Oops, never say exact (it would be exact on paper and easy to learn) No matter what level they play at.

Joe T
Click to expand...
Hi Joe,

So when's the new aiming book coming out? :)

Coming through Texas any time soon?

SPetty <~~ proud owner of Joe's two books, hoping to make it three some day!
 
I don't think ghost ball aiming is wrong at all.
If you want to compensate for throw or skid, why not just aim thinner?
Imo, people actually miss more often than not by worrying too much about the skid or throw.
PP, I agree that a bad stroke/mechanics cause missing more than aiming. Getting up too early and hitting the balls too hard are probably tops too.
 
Joseph Cues said:
...Getting up too early and hitting the balls too hard are probably tops too.
Click to expand...

True- you always have to rest up. Especially when you hit the bars hard.

-pigs
 
Okay I’m back, had to bring the kid to school. Honestly what’s more important? School or this forum?

I do agree with you that there is a lot more to pool than just aiming. I’d be a fool to think otherwise. But we were talking about aiming systems and the reason I chimed in in the first place was because I get very distraught reading many posts that say aiming systems can’t work or help players. It’s simply not true. I haven’t proven it here but I have in real life. I have a very good system that can immediately improve a players perception and accuracy.


But I do disagree with you that players don’t miss because they don’t know where to aim. I’ve tested many players at all levels (even Earl! His perception is very good by the way!) and found that their perception of the shot was wrong before they ever pulled the trigger. But the amazing part is that most of their subconscious minds picked up on the error, takes over and makes a last second correction that they aren’t aware of.

Try this, have a player shoot a medium to long straight in shot and go down the other end of the table bend down to table level and watch them shoot. You’ll notice that many players initially aim a little to one side or the other then as they follow through they finish on the opposite side. If you don’t see it on a normal shot have them jack up a little or lot doesn’t matter. This magnifies what I’m talking about. (don’t look at Scotty Townsend, He’s so perfect when he jacks up, it’ll make you puke!)

You’ll actually see them aimed wrong, then their subconscious makes a correction for them. When this happens the only way to make the shot is for the timing of the correction to be on.

I believe this is due to some players perception of center ball being slightly off, which transfers to their perception of the front part of the cue ball being off. They all new where the object ball had to be struck (hopefully). So many do miss before they shoot. And this is not only on straight shots, it transfers over to all shots. That’s why you may tend to over cut a shot on one side of the table and hit the same shot full on opposite side of the table. Because you missed both ways (overcut and undercut) you may never have noticed it was because you sent the cue balls contact point too far over to one direction or the other on both shots.

Just because you and I didn’t have the luxury early on in our pool careers of having players being able to pass on their perception of aim and how to do it to us. Doesn’t mean we can’t change that for future players. I went years thinking there must be a better way than 8 hrs a day and now I have one and it’s easy to pass on from one player to another. So long as each is patient enough to take it one step at a time.

In all sports barriers are broken and new ways of approaching and instructing are formed. Pool is way behind when it comes to our top level players and instructors improving our aim. Try walking into a billiard club and asking anyone (certified or not) for an aiming lesson. You’ll have your hands full. I understand it was a very hard thing to do because most if not all were doing it subconsciously. But I know what they were doing subconsciously and how to teach you to do it consciously. When a pro shoots, whether or not they know it consciously or subconsciously (most sub), their brain has to pick out and send the correct part of the cue ball at that object balls contact point. My method or system teaches a player how to pick out both contact points quickly and easily, over and over offering constant feedback that improves their perception of how to aim and improves their overall game.

Some of the benefits to this Aiming System are;

Higher levels of confidence and consistency because you’ve learned the answers.

Players are more likely to stay down during the shot because they will feel more like they’re aiming an arrow or pistol sending point A directly at point B. (
Causing less of those mechanical errors we talked about)

The ability to practice LESS because you won’t have to wait for that feeling of being able to “see the shots” comeback. You’ll know the answers soon as you walk in the room. Having the ability to tell your brain aim this at that is better than getting down hoping and waiting for the right feeling to come.

It narrows the game down to 10 major shots that come up over and over. Don't worry, there's no need to memorize angles and distances. I always hated that about other systems.

It puts the player in a constant rhythm and routine that can be as quick as a player in dead stroke.

It makes you approach and give as much attention to easy shots as you would the tough ones. Definite trait of a good player.

Once learned you will have the ability to play your best without having to catch stroke. I spent years trying to figure out how to stay in that gear or zone and have now felt something just as satisfying. Being able to take the credit for playing great without giving the credit to the zone. One shot at a time.

Not getting over excited because you made what we consider a tough shot, only to miss the next one because you’ll know it’s just a shot like any other and you know how and why you made it.

Once mastered you can use the same system to improve your positon play, banks, safeties and kicks!

I wish I was at the table with you guys right now. We could have a lot of fun.

That’s it for today, gotta take care of the days business or the kids or the wife or something else. Perhaps we’ll talk more later.

Spetty, sooner than you could imagine!

Thanks
Joe T
 
Sounds interesting Joe T! Is this similar to... where you apply your tip on the CB is the exact spot on the OB that you should be aiming for?

Zim
 
Excellent posts on this subject from both Pro Player and Joe T!! Different points of view but both viewpoints have elements that are right on the button. I would add that what JoT is explaining can help prevent what Pro Player was describing as being out of stroke. One thing that throws a player out of stroke is being tentative on the shot. If the player feels confident about their aim, there is a good chance that they will be less likely to get out of stroke. Great posts!! Thanks you two!
 
I am living proof that using an aiming system consistently can improve one's game dramatically. The system I use has improved my game at least two balls.

In my opinion there are many systems that have not been covered very much or at all in modern media that work much better than the ghost ball method.

I also disagree that things like weather conditions affect the aiming enough to signifigantly alter the path to the pocket. On any table the pockets are always stationary. Given that this is true there are aiming systems which make things like throw and deflection insignifigant.

I can pretty much guarantee that I can take a C player and have him/her making shots that they literally had no chance to make simply by application of a particular system. Why is this?

Well, here's my theory on what any good/true system does for the shooter. Any system that can be consistently applied gets the player to line up correctly to make the shot. Take ten players and have them use ten different systems to line up on the same shot and you will find that all ten of them have their cues in almost exactly the same place. Forget about how each players stands or strokes the physical reality of pool is that if the ball is struck correctly it MUST go in. Therefore the only thing that counts is that the cueball is struck accurately to insure a pocketed ball and it does not matter how this is achieved.

So, with this in mind I have shown really bad players a simple aiming system and had them pocketing balls from everywhere inside of minutes.

Got to go now - will pick it up later - good thread!

John
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top