Did anybody try this?
Ghost ball aiming
- Thread starter (((Satori)))
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Did anybody try this?
Seems like a lot of imagining for each shot.
In order to accomplish something in reality you must first accomplish it in your mind
For anyone willing to try it, remember the above statement, that is the key to doing this visualization.
This exercise or technique is not to help you locate the ghostball so that you can aim for it. If you do that then you are back to square one. The purpose of this is to help you get a clear picture of success in your head. You will know you have done it correctly when you get that feeling, that feeling of being locked in on the target. That feeling of ease when you can see the shot clearly in your head and dropping in on it and performing is something that you don't even have to try to do.
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Remember one more thing. I can't emphasize enough how important progressive practice is. It will be hard for a C player to visualize clear success on a very tough shot on the first day of doing this but by starting with a manageable shot and proving that this works then reaching to be able to clearly picture success with longer shots and tougher cuts you will soon get there. Just keep up the repetitions and don't give up.
Get a clear picture in your head and the feeling in your body then shoot.
Get a clear picture in your head and the feeling in your body then shoot.
This is pretty much the standard advice that most beginners get. Start with easier shots and work up to harder shots.
I agree that all things begin in the mind. Which is why I don't agree that the subconscious is responsible for success in pool. I think playing great pool is a conscious effort and occasionally we can slip into the zone where all the choices are clear, the paths are clear, the stroke is effortless and we are comfortable.
Where I have a problem with progressive practice combined with the Ghost Ball method, personally, is that it requires a ton of memorization and visualization. And as the shots get tougher they get progressively more stressful when they are faced under pressure.
I have spent countless hours practicing this way. Thousands of them. Visualizing the shot every which way possible. I honestly believed that there was no better way to aim than ghost ball as taught by Robert Byrne and endless practice. But in the interim after learning Hal's methods a whole other world opened up. Which brings me to the point, what good is climbing the ladder of success if your ladder is leaning against the wrong wall?
If you spend countless hours doing progressive shot drills only to find yourself still inconsistent then what's the point of all that. What if you could learn a way to aim that required you to memorize a fairly small set of visuals and it was a 100% surety that any shot you face, no matter how "tough" it appears, was covered by one of those visuals?
Imagine for a moment that you come up on a shot that you have never faced before in the middle of a critical game? Would you want to be stranded with a method that requires approximation and a ton of practice to get comfortable with the shot or would you rather be able to look at it and see the right formula for aiming it immediately?
I don't care what shot you present me with. If it can be made directly into the pocket then I can make it within three tries even if I have never seen it before and mostly within two tries. And I am a lousy player who is too lazy to actually master ProOne.
In game situations, some of them for real good money, I have relied on CTE to pull me through on clutch shots. I have gotten actual live applause from railbirds for coming with shots that most people think are impossible or crazy to take. But this is the difference to using GB, for me, with GB there is that uncertainty, that lack of practice hitting THAT shot hundreds of times that translates into nervousness and a lack of confidence that messes with the execution. So even IF I had managed to visualize the shot properly using GB I still could dog it out of fear that I hadn't visualized it properly.
But with CTE I don't have any of that. None of it. You simply see and shoot right out of the gate. See it, decide on the aim combination, go into the stance and shoot. It flows with almost automatic precision.
So now, when I do shot drills it's not to learn how to visualize the shot. Instead it's to train my self to see the right lines on the actual balls in front of me and to be sure that the ones I pick are the right ones for that shot. Once I have that down then I never have any trouble with that shot or any similar shot again because the same visuals cover a range of similar shots.
Your last comment about not expecting a C-player to get the right visualizations out of the gate is another thing that has seared Hal's aiming methods into my brain as the better way, for me, to aim. When I first learned Hal's methods, not CTE, I went to a tournament held at a local bar and showed the owner and her boyfriend this method. The owner was an APA 3 and the boyfriend was a low APA 5.
I, being still skeptical, wanted to test this out on them and see if it made any difference. Melanie, the owner, started immediately making shots that were WAY over her skill level. John was also making better shots. Anyway they were both impressed. So to me, it's like this, if I can give a C-player a method to use that works regardless of their ability to imagine and works without needed hundreds of shots for every shot they need to learn, then that's a better method. Then they can work on their execution more and develop the type of smooth and solid stroke they will need to go with being lined up dead perfect.
To borrow a line from Stan, "you don't understand."
When one grasps the concept that I have attempted to explain then miracle shots can and do happen easily and effortlessly. C players can experience the pleasure of clearly seeing the shot, knowing how to line up without conscious effort, and shooting with confidence. They can do this right out of the gate too. If you have played long enough to become a c player then you have seen and made every shot you will face. The subconscious has that in its memory. The process will work if you do it right but to develops the consistant trust of Bartrum who you mentioned earlier it will take some time.
The lesson here is to learn to play like the pros. Play effortlessly, see the angles, and feel where to aim. Again you do this by first seeing the shot clearly in your mind. So clearly that you can't see how you can miss. I doubt that you did your progressive training with this concept in mind. I know from the comments you have made that ghostball progressive training to you meant, line the ghostball straight up for a straight in shot, now aim for it. Ok I made that now let's move the cue to a 5% cut shot, ok the ghostball on this shot will be here, now aim hard, ok I made it now memorize that. Later in a game you come across a 5% cut shot and you try hard to recall where the ghost should be and try hard to aim yet you miss and conclude that you tried to aim with ghostball like some pros say they do and tried to build your confidence with progressive training but it didn't work. The truth is you did it wrong. Way too much conscious effort. The natural way of aiming went right pAst you.
What do you really know about me? I met Hal in 2001. Prior to that I played all over the world for as much money as I could pay for. Not a lot but enough to hurt. I started playing pool when I was 12 years old in the Boys and Girls club and graduated to Johnny's Gameroom playing $1-$5 8 ball when I was 14. That was in 1980.
So respectfully, you really have zero idea what I know, who I know, what I have done, how many hours I put in or anything. I was playing for 6 years before I ever read a book on pool.
You make an assumption about me because I advocate a method you don't agree with. But the point of all this is that the end result we both advocate is exactly the same, effortless aiming and execution. You give your advice because you want to see people get better and so do I.
The difference, I assume, is that I have done it YOUR way.
Before I continue let me mention that I was a springboard diver. In springboard diving you are taught to visualize the dive going perfectly as you stand on the board. If you don't do it right or close to right, unlike pool, you can be really hurt. I mean REALLY hurt. Well I am still here even after going from springboard diving to high diving where I had to jump from 90ft and live four times a day for 60 days a year.
So please don't tell me about visualizing a task. I can guarantee you that my imagination is the equal of yours or anyone on the planet. Not only did I visualize the shot going in perfectly I imagined that Efren was my opponent and I was drilling him.......giving up weight.
Here is the thing I told Hal years later. I told him that the way I moved into the cue ball using his methods reminded me of how I did it BEFORE getting Bob Byrne's book. Before ANYONE taught me anything and I just moved naturally to the shot line I moved into the ball in a similar way. But then later I got the book and started learning that way and I still got better but I never did move into the shot the same way as when I use CTE now. Somehow I thought that the GB method and visualizing the shot was the way to go. I bet if I look hard enough I can find on RSB, another newsgroup, somewhere prior to meeting Hal that I told someone to visualize the shot because that's what I believed back then.
I guarantee you that not only did I experience the 'natural' way to aim I did it the most natural way possible and that is without any instruction whatsoever.
Also, you can use Bartram as an example of a pro who says they just do it if you like. Then I can use Darren, Shane, Phil, and many others as examples of pros who use some kind of systematic methods to aim. The point being that "play like a pro" means executing at a high level. It does not mean that one method is inherently better to achieve that than another method given enough time and experience.
I can promise you that if I take a player under my wing and teach him and you lock your guy in the basement with no instruction then my guy will be better than your guy in one month. And better in a year and probably better in five years. But at ten years they might be equal and your guy might even be better. The point being that anyone dedicated enough can learn how to make balls disappear given enough time to do it. It's not DNA sequencing after all.
In every possible activity you will find elite performers who say they just do it and others who say they use certain methods. Both are right.
I can promise you that if I take a player under my wing and teach him and you lock your guy in the basement with no instruction then my guy will be better than your guy in one month. And better in a year and probably better in five years. But at ten years they might be equal and your guy might even be better. The point being that anyone dedicated enough can learn how to make balls disappear given enough time to do it. It's not DNA sequencing after all.
In every possible activity you will find elite performers who say they just do it and others who say they use certain methods. Both are right.
I don't think I'm wrong in stating that Darren and Shane both play like I have stated. They will both tell you that their aiming is automatic now. I know one thing for sure, Darren does not point his lead foot at the desired pocket on a 20 degree cut shot to the left. But my point in this thread is not to compare or to discredit any other system. As much as you say you hate it when people do that I will point out that it is you doing it in this thread.
I am only comparing since you used my videos to begin the thread. As I said I don't have any problem with anyone giving tips on how to use GB. In fact what you advocate isn't even really GB, it's simply visualization of the shot happening, as if watching it on tv.
Well Darren and Shane have both said that they will occasionally step back and consciously aim with their chosen methods if they think that the shot requires it. But for the most part of course by now it's pretty much on autopilot.
As for comparing GB I think is fair since you invoked my videos to begin the discussion. I give plenty of credit to GB for being simple to understand. And I give credit to all players who play at a high level and say they use some form of GB.
As well you invited comparison when you stated that aiming is too complicated for any system to handle as a conscious task. Where I personally don't like GB is for the reasons I stated, which in a nutshell boil down to to much imagination required per shot. Or to put it another way, in my opinion, too much energy needs to be invested to get to the same place that other methods bring you faster.
If you and I had hammers and we both had about the same degree of intelligence and hand-eye coordination then the one of us with the better hammer would get the job done faster and cleaner. I work leather as you well know and in my profession the right tools make a world of difference.
I agree that you can stretch GB with visualization techniques, deliberately seeing an undercut, and overcut etc...these and many more techniques work to assist in finding the shot line. And I wholeheartedly recommend that anyone interested in pursuing GB as far as they can take it use every possible technique they can find.
If you prefer I can bow out of the thread and not converse. I can simply start another thread to discuss my personal issues with the GB method if you like.
He'll no I don't prefer you leave. As I said I enjoy reading your posts. I don't really want to use this thread to bash CTE though and with every mention of CTE I am tempted to argue with you. That has been done to death though so Ill stay focused on how I aim as much as possible. Feel free to bash it,it's all good.
Do you at least have a better understanding of how I use ghostball? I'm not trying to find the spot that's ____ inches away to aim at.
I get it. Your point is my point as well. Except you take it to another subjective level. I don't think you are describing Ghost Ball at all.
What you are describing is inducing a willful hallucination to cause the shooter to somehow slot into the proper line. This is great if it works for you but surely you must agree that it's highly dependent on a person's inner ability to create scenes in their mind. It's beyond ghost ball and is instead ghost shooting where the player replaces the ghost player.
I understand that you aren't trying to pick out a spot that is 1.125" from the object ball edge or 2.25" from the ob center and roll over that spot. I get it. And in fact I think that all advanced players who use GB don't really search for the GB center spot. I do think that most just visualize the shot or simply don't think about it any more.
I think your advice could be helpful to some folks but it's isn't really GB as taught by the book.
JC
Coos Cues
This technique was taught to me by Canadian pro Paul Potier who uses it quite successfully. He never used the term ghost ball but the concept of visualizing both sides of the miss and then splitting them are the same.
JC
That's actually the way most people aim. However, as John stated, it is not really using the ghostball aiming method. It is much closer to using contact point aiming. Finding the contact point on the ob, and then letting your subconscious relate that to the cb. That's what I used to use when I was always shifting between different size cb's. From normal size to the huge oversize that used to be common on bar tables.
True ghost ball is like Duckie says he uses. Imagine a ghost ball there, and then just shoot the center of the cb at the center of the ghost ball. I'm not sold that anyone can do that, but there might be a few out there.
As I recall, Duckie aims at the base of the ghost ball, i.e., at the exterior point of Cranfield's arrow, not at the center of the ghost ball.
JC
Coos Cues
There is a thread about psr on the main forum, I thought my post would be good here 2
The details of a pre-shot routine can vary from shot to shot but the guidelines are the same for me.
I use a guideline of think, see, feel, & trust.
1) think- this is done before anything else and I do not move on unless I know
A) the destination of the ob
B) the destination of the cb
C) the routes they will take
*there are unlimited questions I might ask myself to determine these three factors depending on each individual shot.
Once I have my shot picked out it is time to move forward to the next phase.
2) see- this phase of the routine starts once the shot has been determined and ends once I drop into the shot. (It is done while standing)
In this phase you will mentally visualize the shot and physically line up on it.
A) first you visualize the shot. See the path from pocket to ob this gives me the ghostball location, then see the path of the cueball from ghostball to final destination, then return to ghostball and see the shot line from cb to gb (shot line).
*the whole visualization process can vary in difficulty depending on how easy the shot is or how tired you are, etc. It could be something that takes just a second or it could be something that requires visualization tricks and/or calculations of where to cue the cueball in order to send it along its route. The important thing is that you are confident once you have seen the shot that you have got it.
B) once you see the line it's time to line up on it.i simply plant my back foot on the line and then drop in.
Now we are ready for phase three.
3) feel the shot- once you are down on the shot you should be confident that you have got things 99% handled. Simply allow yourself to feel before execution.
A) feel the stance- you should be comfortable and relaxed. No strain needed to be aligned to the shot.
B) feel the alignment look at the shot line from ob to cb (with soft eyes) to see if you feel lined up. This is not the time to aim IMO. If it don't feel right then you need to get back up. You might be able to make fine adjustments to your aim from here sometimes but if that is your regular process then I think it will cause inconsistency.
C) feel the stroke- feel the speed, feel the groove, feel the shot
Now we are ready for phase four.
4) trust- if all is well at this point then you should be ready to pull the trigger.
You should be able to trust in your preparation and the final execution should be effortless. If you still have any doubts then you are not ready and you need to start over. I find that it helps to have one key thought in this phase to occupy your mind. For example, stay down, follow through, etc. if you can't focus and your mind is still trying to figure out if you are going to scratch, you're not ready, get up and start over.
Hope this helps.
The details of a pre-shot routine can vary from shot to shot but the guidelines are the same for me.
I use a guideline of think, see, feel, & trust.
1) think- this is done before anything else and I do not move on unless I know
A) the destination of the ob
B) the destination of the cb
C) the routes they will take
*there are unlimited questions I might ask myself to determine these three factors depending on each individual shot.
Once I have my shot picked out it is time to move forward to the next phase.
2) see- this phase of the routine starts once the shot has been determined and ends once I drop into the shot. (It is done while standing)
In this phase you will mentally visualize the shot and physically line up on it.
A) first you visualize the shot. See the path from pocket to ob this gives me the ghostball location, then see the path of the cueball from ghostball to final destination, then return to ghostball and see the shot line from cb to gb (shot line).
*the whole visualization process can vary in difficulty depending on how easy the shot is or how tired you are, etc. It could be something that takes just a second or it could be something that requires visualization tricks and/or calculations of where to cue the cueball in order to send it along its route. The important thing is that you are confident once you have seen the shot that you have got it.
B) once you see the line it's time to line up on it.i simply plant my back foot on the line and then drop in.
Now we are ready for phase three.
3) feel the shot- once you are down on the shot you should be confident that you have got things 99% handled. Simply allow yourself to feel before execution.
A) feel the stance- you should be comfortable and relaxed. No strain needed to be aligned to the shot.
B) feel the alignment look at the shot line from ob to cb (with soft eyes) to see if you feel lined up. This is not the time to aim IMO. If it don't feel right then you need to get back up. You might be able to make fine adjustments to your aim from here sometimes but if that is your regular process then I think it will cause inconsistency.
C) feel the stroke- feel the speed, feel the groove, feel the shot
Now we are ready for phase four.
4) trust- if all is well at this point then you should be ready to pull the trigger.
You should be able to trust in your preparation and the final execution should be effortless. If you still have any doubts then you are not ready and you need to start over. I find that it helps to have one key thought in this phase to occupy your mind. For example, stay down, follow through, etc. if you can't focus and your mind is still trying to figure out if you are going to scratch, you're not ready, get up and start over.
Hope this helps.
So, are you taking to me?
The reason I ask is you start out in the first person pronoun. "I", but through out this post, switch to using second person pronoun, "you".
As example:
B) once you see the line it's time to line up on it.i simply plant my back foot on the line and then drop in.
See, there is a assumption that I, because of the use of "you", that I see a line, when in fact I don't.
Not all "you's" you referred to do what you imply they do just because thats how you do it.
Now, if you have a pre shot routine, there must be a shot routine and a post shot routine.
If you are so detailed in your pre shot routine, what are the details of your shot routine and post shot routine or do you only care about a 1/3 part of the whole shot.
The (1) pre-shot routine is the most important. It is the foundation for everything that follows The best mechanics in the world won't save you from poor alignment.
Besides the (2) shot and (3) post-shot routine as you call them are much simpler though not always done. Make the ball and stay down.