The last two forearms I put v groove points in both have one point where it seperated from the forearm on one side of the v groove. I used West System slow epoxy and thought the point stock was perfectly square. Is it the glue I am using? I squared up each point stock with a jointer and planer and checked them with a square before installing. I filled the v groove with quite a bit of epoxy, coated the point wood with epoxy, slid the point stock up and down in the forearm to make sure they are seating in the groove properly and then clamped all four points with surgical tubing. I need to figure out what I am doing wrong before I ruin more forearms. Is there a better glue to use(gorilla glue)? Just looking for suggestions on what to try. A search did not bring up much. Thanks for the help.
Gluing points
- Thread starter josie
- Start date
It sounds like your are doing everything very well and understand the process. Are you mixing up the west system in the right proportions? If your read the instructions they tell you how to mix by volume or by weight. I mix by weight and I believe it is 3.5 to 1. I do 7 grams to 2 grams when I do points and that gives me a little more than I need.
If the glue is hard and you just have one bad point, you must have done something wrong when you applied pressure with the tubing.
Good Luck,
Rick
swami4u
Banned
Well i worked on the Puma 70' Volvo Ocean Race sailboat. Im not a cue builder, But i did learn somethings about Epoxy for sure. I can tell you without doubt' if you don't mix it perfect its not a good picture. When i was mixing 10 gallons at a time during the carbon lay up for the female hull mold, my boss simply said this......"mix it for 10 mins until ready, then mix it another 5 mins, then when your sure its done, mix it longer" I took a bath in the stuff for 15 hours straight. Thank God i was wearing a full suit, with 6 layers of gloves, with duck tape around the wrist. Me and acetone became very close friends that day.
Sounds to me, a temp/humidity problem, or a mix problem.
Last edited:
dave sutton
Banned
sound to me like your angle is off and your getting a glueline
I was wondering if it could be the way I apply the surgical tubing. I just start wrapping it around tightly which actually might cause a side pull on the top of the point. Is there a better way? I mix the epoxy using the pumps and stir for a very long time(2-3 mins.) Does anyone have any toughts on gorilla glue for points? Could too much epoxy be a bad thing? Do you guys start the surgical tubing at the base of the forearm or the joint pin end? I have always wrapped from the base of the forearm. I wondeer if that could make a difference.
Thanks for the help guys.
Thanks for the help guys.
is this only the second set of points youve tried to put in??
if so it might just require more practice and i would say more surgical tubing making sure everything inch has pressure on it. but thats just my opinion it usually takes me 10 attempts before anything turns out right lol
if so it might just require more practice and i would say more surgical tubing making sure everything inch has pressure on it. but thats just my opinion it usually takes me 10 attempts before anything turns out right lol
swami4u
Banned
Again im kinda new to this whole cue building thing, but wouldn't a vacuum bag system around the whole forearm apply better, more even pressure then using tubes?
I have done quite a few forearms before. Most have turned out good. I have had this happen twice before and just thought my point wood was not square. I have gone to extra measures to make sure the wood is square and was doing OK now all of the sudden two in a row like this.
West System is a penetrating epoxy. So it pentrates into the wood and sometimes can leave dry spots that don't adhere. When using it in tighter press fits like stitch rings and points, I coat the pieces going in and the slots. I let it all soak in a few minutes then recoat it and then glue it. Before I started doing it that way I had problems with some sterling silver stitch rings coming loose. I was having to toss a lot of rings until I figured out what the problem was. The fact it is a penetrating epoxy also makes it a good pre finish sealer as it can actually harden the surface of the wood slightly.
I would second this as a suggestion to explore. Your angles on points are off (larger than 90 degrees) a little, causing the sides to make contact before it bottoms out. The clamping pressure from the tubing is going to spread the V Groove a little to accommodate the point size, but one V Groove is going to lose out, and the point gets pushed up from the clamping pressure rather than the V Groove expanding.
Just a guess though.
Kelly
if you cut the forearm in half, this may provide a better idea of whats going on. by looking at the cross section midway of the forearm, you can see how the point is laying in the groove.
if one side is flush and the other is not, then you have angle difference btn the groove and point.
if you have equal angles of both, then you should be able to see the base of the groove (bottom of V) and the corner of the point not touching, therefore resulting in one side having a separation at the outer perimeter, while the other side touching. and this may be a wrapping/binding technique. (not sure if i explained that clearly enough).
either way, this will give you a better idea of what's going on, in addition to seeing how the grooves/points are aligned w/ each other.
good luck w/ finding the diagnosis!
- Glue points and grooves (once fit is verified. Not all corners may be square, so dry fit and mark the appropriate glue faces) Number each point/groove.
- Slip into place, rub back and forth to squeeze out excess glue
- Wrap points with painters tape in a couple spots to hold preliminary positions while preparing to wrap
- Double check points for fit
- Wrap the works in HD wax paper
- Then wrap with tubing, starting at the bottom, deepest part.
Most likely you are tilting the points with the sideways pressure from the tubing. Most likely just a quirk of your technique.
Frank
- Slip into place, rub back and forth to squeeze out excess glue
- Wrap points with painters tape in a couple spots to hold preliminary positions while preparing to wrap
- Double check points for fit
- Wrap the works in HD wax paper
- Then wrap with tubing, starting at the bottom, deepest part.
Most likely you are tilting the points with the sideways pressure from the tubing. Most likely just a quirk of your technique.
Frank
It was said in an earlier message, but it sounds like the point wood is rolling a little when you are putting the surgical tubing on. You need to really get a good grip on the point wood as you start winding the tubing or the torque pressure from wrapping the tubing can pull one side of the points out of the point groove a little giving that dreaded gap. I always look from the end of the forearm to see how the point wood is laying in the grooves as I start the tubing wrap. Easy to see if you don't totally cover the point wood with wax paper. Give it a try. I know 1 person that uses hose clamps while starting the tubing and removes them after he gets a good start. Never tried that one.
I would consider what I am encountering is more than a glue line. My guess is the gap is about .010"-.015" wide.
This thouht might have some merit because every time it has happened it is just on one point. Could too much pressure be applied with surgical tubing? I wrap it about as tight as I can.
Thanks again everyone.
I disagree. It can be diluted to penetrate, but it is not designed to be so. Smith's is, West is not. West suggests it is a better solution to Smith's when it is diluted. ANY liquid will penetrate wood to some extent, but to say West is designed to is an error.
With Respect, Randy
Have you turned it round again, yet? If so, then reface the bottom of the forearm, put a pencil line from top to bottom on one point, then on a bandsaw, start to cut slices off. As you go, you should get a good view of were it went wrong. Sort of like a biopsy.
A picture may help to diagnose also.
Just an idea.
Dave
A picture may help to diagnose also.
Just an idea.
Dave
Points
I've had this happen too. I believe my problem was from the surgical tubing pulling the points in the direction I was wrapping it. Now, I wrap in one direction with medium pressure. Then I wrap in the opposite direction tightly with a second piece of tubing. Seems to cancel this out.
Also, make sure the bottom of the "V" is sharp and cleaned out so the point stock doesn't bottom out on debris.
I've had this happen too. I believe my problem was from the surgical tubing pulling the points in the direction I was wrapping it. Now, I wrap in one direction with medium pressure. Then I wrap in the opposite direction tightly with a second piece of tubing. Seems to cancel this out.
Also, make sure the bottom of the "V" is sharp and cleaned out so the point stock doesn't bottom out on debris.
I agree 1,010%. He is twisting the point wood when doing the wrapping of the tubing. I've done the same thing more than once and now no longer glue in all 4 points at once so that it is much easier to control what is going on. Since I now use Brienna's re-indexer I just make 2 channels at a time, glue in the inlay points and veneers then the next day do the next 2. This practically eliminates the chance for error and a wasted prong and lets me cut deeper into the prong so that the rear of the points are closer to each other. There's no great hurry that the points need to be completed in one session.
Dick