Go Harriman Go!

Oh my God, I have so many questions. First, I am assuming he had to get on the table to make a shot, and not just as sort of a way to celebrate the win? I am assuming it's not the latter, but I have to ask because it was mentioned this was the "game-winning shot" and that seems like a coincidence.

OK, so my good friend and IM-partner Jude has informed me that the IPT does not recognize any other rulebook, and hence there is no "one foot on the floor rule". Is that what is in play here?

Did the referees instantly know this was a loophole or did they have to leaf through every single rule to make sure this wasn't in there somewhere? I can't imagine how long this might take, say, at the BCA Amateurs in Vegas.

How did Danny even think to question this rule?

Further, as my aforementioned good friend and IM-partner Jude pointed out, is there anything in the rulebook specifically forbidding standing on the table and urinating? He did not mention it, but this strategy would probably work best if you created large puddles only near your opponent's object balls. Of course, you'd be taking your chances where the balls lie in the next game.

Finally, I'm a big fan of Danny, but I agree - this is simply disgraceful.

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Oh my God, I have so many questions. First, I am assuming he had to get on the table to make a shot, and not just as sort of a way to celebrate the win? I am assuming it's not the latter, but I have to ask because it was mentioned this was the "game-winning shot" and that seems like a coincidence.

OK, so my good friend and IM-partner Jude has informed me that the IPT does not recognize any other rulebook, and hence there is no "one foot on the floor rule". Is that what is in play here?

Did the referees instantly know this was a loophole or did they have to leaf through every single rule to make sure this wasn't in there somewhere? I can't imagine how long this might take, say, at the BCA Amateurs in Vegas.

How did Danny even think to question this rule?

Further, as my aforementioned good friend and IM-partner Jude pointed out, is there anything in the rulebook specifically forbidding standing on the table and urinating? He did not mention it, but this strategy would probably work best if you created large puddles only near your opponent's object balls. Of course, you'd be taking your chances where the balls lie in the next game.

Finally, I'm a big fan of Danny, but I agree - this is simply disgraceful.

- Steve
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Ok, after reviewing the rules, urinating probably wouldn't be allowed (see Sportsmanship).

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/ipt_content/ipt_rules/default.asp

You could probably get away with it if you can argue that it was done strategically.


Seriously, these rules are incredibly brief. What the BCA has spent chapters discussing, the IPT has managed to do in 3,902 words (718 are devoted to the dress code).
 
Steve Lipsky said:
OK, so my good friend and IM-partner Jude has informed me that the IPT does not recognize any other rulebook, and hence there is no "one foot on the floor rule". Is that what is in play here?

Did the referees instantly know this was a loophole or did they have to leaf through every single rule to make sure this wasn't in there somewhere? I can't imagine how long this might take, say, at the BCA Amateurs in Vegas.
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Steve, I believe your friend Jude is correct about the IPT not accepting any other rulebook and the "one foot" rule not being in the IPT.

On the other point, per a report on InsidePool, Danny spoke to the referee, and got approval, before getting up on the table.

Under these circumstances, I think Danny just took advantage of the IPT's lack of a rule.

IMHO, if the IPT wants to have their own, exclusive, set of rules, they have to cover the fine points more thoroughly.
 
Every one might think Danny was " wrong " but a rule is a rule ....Johnny was unsportsman like ....thats is far worse than following the rules ...two wrongs dont make it right...
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Ok, after reviewing the rules, urinating probably wouldn't be allowed (see Sportsmanship).

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/ipt_content/ipt_rules/default.asp

You could probably get away with it if you can argue that it was done strategically.
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Nope, strategic urination isn't allowed. IPT Rule 12.0.d says that it's a foul to mark the table in any way with a piece of chalk or any other method.
:rolleyes:
 
Blowing things way out of proportion!

I like Archer but give me a break!
I have to agree with the sour grapes comment!
Boston Shorty used to put clauses in his games all the time that would allow him to climb on the table to reach a shot (admittedly this was gambling, but still)...I don't recall anyone whining about him!
If you're playing for that kind of money and you're 75% on the shot using a bridge and 95% percent on the shot if you're allowed on the table and it's not against the rules, then you're an idiot if you don't use it to your advantage. It in no way screws the other person directly so him not shaking hands is way worse sportsmanship.
I just don't understand these pool players who feel that their vision of what pool is and should be is the end all be all, and if you don't conform to it exactly the way they think you should then you're bringing down the game.
 
Rich R. said:
On the other point, per a report on InsidePool, Danny spoke to the referee, and got approval, before getting up on the table.

Under these circumstances, I think Danny just took advantage of the IPT's lack of a rule.
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Hey Rich. Does the report mention how the referee acted? Was it more of an "Oh ****, you're right, it's not in the rules. I guess I'm going to have to let you do this. Wow, this is going to look very bad." Or was it a, "Yessiree! Get up there and show us what you got! Let's show 'em how different the IPT is!"

I guess that's not really important; I am very curious though.

On a more meaningful note though, it sounds like Danny already knew this was a loophole. I can only speak for what I would do, but if it were me, I'd have let Deno know before the tournament that I found a loophole and he better amend the rules. I liken the situation to finding a briefcase with $10,000 (or $500,000?) in the back seat of a cab. It has a driver's license with an address on it. You can either keep the money or return it, but just because the owner forgot it doesn't mean he deserves to not have it returned.

It seems as if Danny knew the loophole beforehand and decided to keep this knowledge to himself, to spring it upon an unsuspecting opponent at just the right time. Not my cup of tea.

- Steve
 
Rich R. said:
IMHO, if the IPT wants to have their own, exclusive, set of rules, they have to cover the fine points more thoroughly.
Click to expand...

Well said, and I agree totally.
 
Knowing the rules thoroughly has always been another tool from which to pull out when it serves you best. It's a players responsibility to know the rules, how can you call that unsportsmanlike.

I'm with Harriman on this one. Instead of comparing it to finding a briefcase full of money in a cab, I would compare it more to using a jump cue in 1 pocket or straight pool. There's no rule against it therefore until it's specifically mentioned in the rules it's legal.

I am dissapointed in Archer though, he should have had the class to shake hands.
 
supergreenman said:
I am dissapointed in Archer though, he should have had the class to shake hands.
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I can see where Archer is right to be dismayed at Harriman's taking advantage of the rules. Neither player exhibited much sportmanship here, so I wouldn't be so quick to criticize Archer conduct without also criticizing Harriman's conduct too.

Despite the loophole, Deno should have made an impromtu ruling that one foot must be on the floor while shooting. No doubt, this oversight will be corrected by the next tournament.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
It seems as if Danny knew the loophole beforehand and decided to keep this knowledge to himself, to spring it upon an unsuspecting opponent at just the right time. Not my cup of tea.

- Steve
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I'm kinda thinkin' Johnny Archer ain't exactly an unsuspecting opponent. Johnny can read and understand the rules as well as anyone else. What are his responsibilities in this loophole theory?

I think it's fair to argue whether the rules should be changed or not, but it is completely unfair to disrespect a person for following a rule you just don't happen to agree with.
 
Da Poet said:
I'm kinda thinkin' Johnny Archer ain't exactly an unsuspecting opponent. Johnny can read and understand the rules as well as anyone else. What are his responsibilities in this loophole theory?
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I can only speak for myself, but even after reading the rulebook, there is no way I would have known about this loophole. I do not think the average player would have been expected to figure it out either. It's not that easy to look for things that aren't there.

Anyway, I do have to apologize to Danny. I have been informed that this particular maneuver was in fact performed by other players previously in the tournament. The fact there was no rule change after it was first performed makes it perfectly acceptable in my mind, then. Danny wasn't trying to pull one over on anyone; he was simply doing what he had seen others do.

I should never have doubted him.

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
I can only speak for myself, but even after reading the rulebook, there is no way I would have known about this loophole. I do not think the average player would have been expected to figure it out either. It's not that easy to look for things that aren't there.

Anyway, I do have to apologize to Danny. I have been informed that this particular maneuver was in fact performed by other players previously in the tournament. The fact there was no rule change after it was first performed makes it perfectly acceptable in my mind, then. Danny wasn't trying to pull one over on anyone; he was simply doing what he had seen others do.

I should never have doubted him.

- Steve
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Aw shucks you're a decent guy. And besides, neither of them were eliminated in this round anyway. :D
 
I am proud of Danny to show up in Reno and show the pros what he is made of. I had the pleasure of meeting Danny about a month ago, and I know he is a very humble, and sincere man. Have you considered the graciousness in the removal of the shoes? Maybe he didn't want to scuff the diamond tables??
Anyway, Danny...Congrats on a great week thus far! Know that someone's lil sister is rooting for you in GA (along with her co-workers and family).
BTW... Phewey on Archer for being a big baby about the whole issue... shake hands like an decent person would do...don't be a big baby!
 
Honestly, this has very little to do with Danny and more to do with the logic behind such a ruling. I am 100% certain that if Steve and I were playing an IPT match and if I got up on the table on all fours to shoot a shot, I would be uninvited to Steve's next birthday dinner. Then, on his birthday, Steve would have his dinner and announce to his friends, "In case all of you have not noticed, Jude is not here. The reason why he isn't here is because I UNinvited him. Why? You ask. I did so because he got up on the table, like a child at a local rec. room while playing in a professional tournament. I will NEVER speak to him again. Oh, and he owns a jump cue."
 
Sally T. posted on Inside Pool a quote by Harriman where he said he saw other players getting up on the table and that is where he got the idea.

Now I suppose you are going to criticize these other players too?

Johnny Archer not shaking hands is just plain old sour grapes.

If it was a sharking tactic by Danny then it sure worked because Archer lost his first two matches in the next round.

Any comments by Deno?

Jake
 
Steve Lipsky said:
On a more meaningful note though, it sounds like Danny already knew this was a loophole. - Steve
Click to expand...

Yep, I too think Danny was saving this move for just the right moment.

I am thinking that when Danny had trouble a while back with the UPA Johnny did not stick up for him, and this was Danny's way of saying, "up yours Johnny".

Somehow, I think he would have preferred to use it against Charlie.

But I can be all wrong. Danny is such a nice young man and would never do anything wrong. He probably goes to church twice on Sunday and a couple times during the week.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
Yep, I too think Danny was saving this move for just the right moment.

I am thinking that when Danny had trouble a while back with the UPA Johnny did not stick up for him, and this was Danny's way of saying, "up yours Johnny".

Somehow, I think he would have preferred to use it against Charlie.

But I can be all wrong. Danny is such a nice young man and would never do anything wrong. He probably goes to church twice on Sunday and a couple times during the week.

Jake
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Jake
Everybody has moved forward and we would like to keep all of that in the past. Danny is in Reno for one reason, and that is to win a pool tournament. He's out there playing his best and he just might pull it off.
 
I can't blame Danny for taking advantage of the loop hole. If it's not a rule, it's not a rule plain and simple. At a darts tournament if there was no line, I guarantee the players move up very close to the board.

That said, if snooker players don't need to get up on the table to play shots, pool players shouldn't have to either. I hope the IPT learns their lesson and re-works their rule set.
 
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my 2 cents

go to new orleans area and play pool, everybody climbs up on the table there!, albeit it's not a major tourny, but everybody does it.
as far as danny's situation, he did everything right, he asked the referee, and was told he could get on the table, granted it is not what all of us believe is the right and professional thing to do, but since there was a loopole in the rules, who's the smart one in this situation?
as far as archer not shaking his hand, that's a total lack of sportsmanship!! he was getting soundly beat up to that point, and granted johnny can string alot of racks, but the match was won before that climb on the table shot. nobody likes to lose, but you have to show some class when it happens!
 
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