midnightpulp said:
Another link to give you an idea just how big this game is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C.
One team with more fans than the entire population of the US! That's big.
Golf vs. Pool: Prize Money (mini-Rant)
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Another link to give you an idea just how big this game is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C.
One team with more fans than the entire population of the US! That's big.
mate i know it can be difficult to get a true perspective living on this issue living in america - it's like a closed off bubble when it comes to football.
But there is only one true global sport and it's football. global participation wise golf and football is not even a close contest. then we get into global INTEREST levels. golf is not anywhere near.
and where do you get the idea that national games aren't televised??
EVERY SINGLE england game is on and 90% of the other games are too. If they aren't on the BBC they're on huge commercial mainstream channels like ITV.
notice in my original statement i said footballers ON AVERAGE earn more than golfers. yes there are a couple of key golfers mainly tiger who are richer, but in football the average premier league wage is 25 grand a week. sterling. for a lot of journeyman players who don't even play week in week out.
when you are talking about phil and tiger in golf they are pretty much the only two who can earn this silly money. and most of it's from their sponsorships and endorsements anyway. as of 2006/2006 roy keane was earning 100,000 pounds a WEEK. current exchange rate you can double that for a decent estimate. 200,000 dollars a week.
and soccer fandom doesn't just come out in the world cup. it's no exaggeration to say most people in the uk any age have basic knowledge of football. most people don't even know how to play golf. i'll be honest i don't.
exactly. nothing is a close second is the best way to sum it up. hard to swallow if you're a fan of another big sport but it's true. and you only have to take a trip a few miles south of the US to your brazil's and argentina's of this world to see the real participation and passion. heck there is talk in england of how the national failures are down to lack of passion at a grassroots level in comparison with the kids on the continent.
don't fall into the trap of thinking football is only european!
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OK....had enough
This thread has nothing to do with fans, but with prize money. TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. There is something that golf and pool do have in common as far as money goes...you have to earn it every week. If you do not perform, you do not get paid, PERIOD. If you get hurt and can not play, guess what...NO CHECK THAT WEEK. If you miss the cut or get knocked out early, NO CHECK. Do you think this could add a little pressure to the games and make them mean that much more? This is something that no team sport has. And yes, I know that if a player does not perform in a team sport, he can be released from his contract, but he is still paid.
Mark
midnightpulp said:
This thread has nothing to do with fans, but with prize money. TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. There is something that golf and pool do have in common as far as money goes...you have to earn it every week. If you do not perform, you do not get paid, PERIOD. If you get hurt and can not play, guess what...NO CHECK THAT WEEK. If you miss the cut or get knocked out early, NO CHECK. Do you think this could add a little pressure to the games and make them mean that much more? This is something that no team sport has. And yes, I know that if a player does not perform in a team sport, he can be released from his contract, but he is still paid.
Mark
worriedbeef said:
Deleted. Responded to wrong poster
hit it right on the head. i dont care about fanbase. i am talking about players. period. show me the statistical numbers that more people PLAY soccer than play golf and I will eat my words. and i am not saying it has had an impact on society but just rather that golf is PLAYED by more people period. I am a fan of football(NFL and NCAA), I watch the World series and get into a few sports. Do I play any of them. NO. Show me the stats. i dont need to see a 2 year old article and stats from 7 years ago. US has 300,000,000 population. so lets say about 75,000,000 play golf annually. that only requires that 175,000,000 of the rest of the world has to play golf to have more than soccer. SHOW ME THE STATS. Until then, this is my last post on the matter but I will keep my eyes open. Thanks.Bluesteel said:
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subdude1974 said:
But you did imply that that Golf has a larger fandom than soccer when you said "How many Nationally Televised Tournaments are there" and "That fandom only comes out during the World Cup." So I provided you with some info.
So what are we talking about? Pure particpation? Or popularity? Two different things. I play darts more than baseball these days, but I'm a fan of baseball more than darts.
But again, as far as popularity is concerned, you have soccer and everything else.
you are the one who brought fans into this. i was only talking about players. i have no idea about fans. i will conceed the point there are more soccer FANS because I truly dont know and will take your word for it. But players....? You are on the wrong side of the equation.midnightpulp said:
subdude1974 said:
Actually, I never said more PLAY soccer than they do Golf. You inferred that when I said soccer is played everywhere. I was talking of the two game's respective popularity.
I'm looking for Golf participation stats. Oops, just found one: "According to the National Golf Foundation, 26 million people played golf in 2002."
http://www.indiana.edu/~nca/monographs/10golf.shtml
Can't find a worldwide stat though.
FWIW, here's the estimated number for pool particpation in the US: "There were 39.2 million billiards players in the U.S. in 2002, making billiards the fourth largest participatory sport in the U.S."
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/15446
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/15446
subdude1974 said:
Subdude....you are flogging a horse that isn't just dead, it's buried and long ago eaten by the worms
Not even close....some figures and perspective.....there are less han 35 million regular golfers in USA, possibly as few as 30 million. There are 45 million regular WOMEN! soccer players worldwide.
No professional sports analyst or commentator or statistician anywhere in the world would ever think for a nanosecond of suggesting that more people play golf than soccer. It isn't even remotely close. The difference is by a factor of a minimum of X 4 depending on whose estimates you accept and is realistically far greater than that.
Again depending on whose figures you accept golf is realistically not even in the top 8 participation sports in the world and possibly as low as number 12. Nobody lists it above number 6. Soccer is head and shoulders indisputably number 1 and is listed number 1 in every statistical survey known to man.
Like you I love golf (will probably be playing European Seniors PGA Tour event next month as an invited amateur) but this argument really is a dead duck and pointless pursuing. If you can find any reasonably reputable publication/survey/site which lists golf as having more worldwide regular players than soccer I'll treat you to a free round of golf at the course of your choice
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again stats that are 6 years old. i believe that number has risen greatly in the last 5 years. no disputing that.midnightpulp said:
point conceeded. more players playing soccer. but my point is still that golf is the hardest sport. thanks for the info. but i would still like to see some recent stats that I could look at.memikey said:Subdude....you are flogging a horse that isn't just dead, it's buried and long ago eaten by the worms
Not even close....some figures and perspective.....there are less han 35 million regular golfers in USA, possibly as few as 30 million. There are 45 million regular WOMEN! soccer players worldwide.
No professional sports analyst or commentator or statistician anywhere in the world would ever think for a nanosecond of suggesting that more people play golf than soccer. It isn't even remotely close. The difference is by a factor of a minimum of X 4 depending on whose estimates you accept and is realistically far greater than that.
Again depending on whose figures you accept golf is realistically not even in the top 8 participation sports in the world and possibly as low as number 12. Nobody lists it above number 6. Soccer is head and shoulders indisputably number 1 and is listed number 1 in every statistical survey known to man.
Like you I love golf (will probably be playing European Seniors PGA Tour event next month as an invited amateur) but this argument really is a dead duck and pointless pursuing. If you can find any reasonably reputable publication/survey/site which lists golf as having more worldwide regular players than soccer I'll treat you to a free round of golf at the course of your choice
subdude1974 said:
I'll agree that Golf is the harder than pool, simply because I don't seem to have the aptitude for it, although I never really approached the game seriously. I would like to, but just don't have the time or money to spend on clubs, fees, lessons, etc. Pool comes easier to me. But I still believe pool is the more intellectual game of the two.
cigardave said:
Pro volleyball?
http://www.toyotaprobeach.com/Prize_Money.htm
Surfers are better off.
http://www.aspworldtour.com/2007/schedule.asp?rView=w&rRat=mwqs&rNav=Men&rYear=2007&rTitulo=WQS
subdude1974 said:
Not sure that adequately fair parameters and reasonable measuring systems can be set up to reliably test the relative "difficulty" of all sports for valid comparison purposes, so wouldn't myself like to pass too confident or intransigent an opinion on which sport is the hardest to become very competent at......but if just comparing two would wholeheartedly agree with you and others re golf being significantly more difficult than pool.
I vaguely remember a fairly convincing philosophical argument put forward before that in fact all sports are equally difficult to become competent at relative to your peers who play it, but that's a slightly different subject and a bit too touchy feely spiritual a concept for this particular bitter and twisted cynic to be comfortable with and I cant remember exactly how it went anyway. There may have been some alcohol involved at the time
memikey said:Not sure that adequately fair parameters and reasonable measuring systems can be set up to reliably test the relative "difficulty" of all sports for valid comparison purposes, so wouldn't myself like to pass too confident or intransigent an opinion on which sport is the hardest to become very competent at......but if just comparing two would wholeheartedly agree with you and others re golf being significantly more difficult than pool.
I vaguely remember a fairly convincing philosophical argument put forward before that in fact all sports are equally difficult to become competent at relative to your peers who play it, but that's a slightly different subject and a bit too touchy feely spiritual a concept for this particular bitter and twisted cynic to be comfortable with and I cant remember exactly how it went anyway. There may have been some alcohol involved at the time
I totally agree with you. It's impossible to objectively quantify because a game cannot play itself. The only way to arrive at some knowledge of a game's difficulty is to view it in the context of being played at the highest level, and even then, you won't have an answer, because the highest level of anything is very difficult. So ostensibly, it all evens out. I said this in an earlier post:
"As far as the difficulty factor of pool and golf being "worlds apart", I cannot disagree more. First off, it's impossible to determine an accurate "difficulty" factor for any given sport/game, because there's going to be talents who always set a new standard. For example, sitting in my chair at the moment is "easy", but if I take a look in the Guinness Book of World Records, I'll probably see some amazing feat of endurance and thus, "chair sitting" at its highest levels becomes very, very difficult.
Simple things are given a new dimension at their highest levels. Do you think James Naismith had the current level of the NBA in mind when he nailed a peach basket to the wall all those years ago?"
It comes down to personal experience and opinion. At this moment, for ME, Golf is much more difficult than pool, because I have limited experience playing the game, but I grew up with a home pool table.
This will be my last post on this subject. I will eat my words and agree more people play soccer. I learn something new everyday. Back to the point that golf is more difficult. you say pool is more difficult than golf mentally? ok.
Golf is a game that takes 4 hours to play a round. Longer in competition. Imagine it taking you 4 hours to play one rack. Dont you think that would be mentally draining. Anyone who has played serious competitve golf knows what I am talking about. And no the member - member is not serious competition. In golf just some of the things that go through a golfers mind: Which way is the wind blowing and how hard? High or low? Do I want to miss it right, left, long or short? Which side of the tee box do I tee up from? Which side of the hole do I want to be on? Iron or wood? What is he doing ahead of me? Behind me? How will the ball coem out of this lie? Which way is the grain running? Do I swing the club hard or overclub and swing easy? I could go on but you get the point.
You have to compete against everybody on the course that week the whole time. Yes there is a cut so you only compete against 60 players on Sat. and Sun.
Pool you compete against one person at a time. It does not mean sh*t what Archer is doing on table 13 because you are playing Joe Shmoe on table 20. You win you move on. Pool you think about What is my way out? What are the percentages on this shot? Offense or defense? Which angle do I want? Now tell me, which game is the harder of the two?
And how bout playing in the elements? How many tournaments have you played in outside in the rain with a wind chill of 2 and a 40mph wind? 0. Or having just the wind and warm. having debris hitting you in the face while you are shooting the game winning 9 ball in the corner because of the wind. Again, 0. So I hate to be the one to shatter your world of pool being more difficult mentally,but that is an undisputable FACT that golg is harder.(as is there are more soccer players in the world than there are golfers) If you still believe that pool is harder mentally, hey that is your opinion. You are entitiled. But I will leave you with one thought.
DENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN EGYPT.
Golf is a game that takes 4 hours to play a round. Longer in competition. Imagine it taking you 4 hours to play one rack. Dont you think that would be mentally draining. Anyone who has played serious competitve golf knows what I am talking about. And no the member - member is not serious competition. In golf just some of the things that go through a golfers mind: Which way is the wind blowing and how hard? High or low? Do I want to miss it right, left, long or short? Which side of the tee box do I tee up from? Which side of the hole do I want to be on? Iron or wood? What is he doing ahead of me? Behind me? How will the ball coem out of this lie? Which way is the grain running? Do I swing the club hard or overclub and swing easy? I could go on but you get the point.
You have to compete against everybody on the course that week the whole time. Yes there is a cut so you only compete against 60 players on Sat. and Sun.
Pool you compete against one person at a time. It does not mean sh*t what Archer is doing on table 13 because you are playing Joe Shmoe on table 20. You win you move on. Pool you think about What is my way out? What are the percentages on this shot? Offense or defense? Which angle do I want? Now tell me, which game is the harder of the two?
And how bout playing in the elements? How many tournaments have you played in outside in the rain with a wind chill of 2 and a 40mph wind? 0. Or having just the wind and warm. having debris hitting you in the face while you are shooting the game winning 9 ball in the corner because of the wind. Again, 0. So I hate to be the one to shatter your world of pool being more difficult mentally,but that is an undisputable FACT that golg is harder.(as is there are more soccer players in the world than there are golfers) If you still believe that pool is harder mentally, hey that is your opinion. You are entitiled. But I will leave you with one thought.
DENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN EGYPT.
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subdude1974 said:This will be my last post on this subject. I will eat my words and agree more people play soccer. I learn something new everyday. Back to the point that golf is more difficult. you say pool is more difficult than golf mentally? ok.
Golf is a game that takes 4 hours to play a round. Longer in competition. Imagine it taking you 4 hours to play one rack. Dont you think that would be mentally draining. Anyone who has played serious competitve golf knows what I am talking about. And no the member - member is not serious competition. In golf just some of the things that go through a golfers mind: Which way is the wind blowing and how hard? High or low? Do I want to miss it right, left, long or short? Which side of the tee box do I tee up from? Which side of the hole do I want to be on? Iron or wood? What is he doing ahead of me? Behind me? How will the ball coem out of this lie? Which way is the grain running? Do I swing the club hard or overclub and swing easy? I could go on but you get the point.
You have to compete against everybody on the course that week the whole time. Yes there is a cut so you only compete against 60 players on Sat. and Sun.
Pool you compete against one person at a time. It does not mean sh*t what Archer is doing on table 13 because you are playing Joe Shmoe on table 20. You win you move on. Pool you think about What is my way out? What are the percentages on this shot? Offense or defense? Which angle do I want? Now tell me, which game is the harder of the two?
And how bout playing in the elements? How many tournaments have you played in outside in the rain with a wind chill of 2 and a 40mph wind? 0. Or having just the wind and warm. having debris hitting you in the face while you are shooting the game winning 9 ball in the corner because of the wind. Again, 0. So I hate to be the one to shatter your world of pool being more difficult mentally,but that is an undisputable FACT that golg is harder.(as is there are more soccer players in the world than there are golfers) If you still believe that pool is harder mentally, hey that is your opinion. You are entitiled. But I will leave you with one thought.
DENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN EGYPT.
Okay, now you're starting to get a little smug and arrogant. I can bring that too, but I won't, since I don't feel like incurring the wrath of the Mr. Wilson. However, if I wanted to read childish cliches and chest puffing, I can go over to the ESPN forums and read all the kids telling each other "I own this, I own that."
You lose tons of credibility in your argument when you call your opinion an "undisputable fact" when you have no hope of proving your argument with actual facts. Chess is in another world when compared to Golf in terms of strategy, critical thinking, pattern recognition, and a host of other things associated with intelligence, but it is played indoors without any environmental variables. Point is, just becomes something is hard to DO, doesn't necessarily translate that something is hard to CONCEIVE of doing. I easily know what it takes to make a 3 point shot, doesn't take a lot of thought, but it's extremely difficult to make 20 of those shots in a row. Running a rack a 9 ball is a much easier feat, but takes a hell of lot more thought. Understand what I'm saying?
I don't think you do, because you brought up the mental toll golf takes on you as a counter argument to how I believe pool in more intellectual than golf. Something that is mentally draining doesn't mean it's an intellectual challenge. Two different things.
To give you a small victory, I think Golf is more intellectually challenging than 9 ball and maybe 8 ball. But 14.1? One pocket? Rotation? Not in my book, which by the way, is not a fact, it's an opinion.
FWIW, here's a link to an ESPN study about the most difficult sports: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills
Golf only scored 2/3 of point higher than Billiards in Analytical Aptitude, and knowing the half-assed company ESPN has become, I doubt they considered ALL the pool games. Tennis scored higher than both in AA, which I think is totally false. So the study has its problems, a lot of problems, but it's something to give you an idea.
So there it is. Feel free to bring more of your "fact" to indisputably prove me wrong
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subdude1974 said:Golf is a game that takes 4 hours to play a round. Longer in competition. Imagine it taking you 4 hours to play one rack. Dont you think that would be mentally draining.
A false analogy, comparing a rack to a round of Golf. But anyhow, pool players have been known to play multiple sets against each other for DAYS, without a significant break.
In tournament play, you don't just play one match and go back to your hotel, you play many, which can often take up to 8+ hours in all to complete.
A large straightpool run can take hours. Imagine the nerve, the pressure, the applied strategy, the execution it takes to run 300 balls. In terms of variables, sure the playing conditions don't change much, but each rack changes significantly and takes a whole new approach to run out.
You brought up that you don't have to worry about your opponents much, you're right. You're opponent is the table. That's the point of this game, always has been. But if needed, you can easily structure pool to be more about your opponents and use a round robin format, like in the Johnston City Days. Then you do have to worry about what Archer is doing on table 13 or whatever.
You'll probably say otherwise, but it seems you have a much greater passion for Golf than pool, since you sell pool way short on so many levels.