Golf vs. Pool: Prize Money (mini-Rant)

[JDB]

It's worth nothing that if your lifetime highrun is 150, you probably will get killed in world-class straight pool competition. Maybe not today, since the talent pool is not what it was, but in its in heyday, it stands to reason a player who has "only" run 150 would have little chance of competiting with the Mosconi's, Miz's, Hopkins's, etc... Blackjack has run over 200. Put up an 8 or 9 pack in 9 ball competition, and I remember reading a post of his where he say he considers himself a middle of the road pro.

Yes, a middle of the road pro will be competitive in most pool tournaments they enter. However, a scratch golfer will have no chance at all in a Pro Golf Tournament.

What is perfect pool? An Accustats rating of a 1000? What is perfect golf? A hole in one on every hole? Again, I don't think it's a fair comparison, because Par 4 and 5's were purposely designed to take more than one stroke to play, so it's impossible to acheive perfection based on a score.

You are right, an accustats rating of 1000 is no comparison to an 18 in golf.

However, I think it's impossible to objectively define the "difficulty" of any game. Memikey had it right. Anything performed at its highest level will take a great amount of intelligence or agility or athleticism. So it all kind of evens out. First we have to determine what constitues proficiency at any given game. In pool, is a B player considered profecient? A high C? In Golf, is it a 10 Handicap, 15? Then we have to measure the number of players who have reached profeciency against how people play the game as whole and find out a percentage.

I agree, it is difficult to quantify, but not impossible if everyone is willing to listen to reason. However, usually there will be too much bias one way or another.

But we can't do this, cause proficiency is a matter of opinion. Compared with the general population, a C player is pretty good, but there's a lot who think a C rated player isn't very good.

I'm not informed enough to really argue this point, but how does every shot besides putting require precise calculations when you have such large targets as the fairway and green?

Its really not that large when you consider you are 300+ yards away. That is like saying that all pockets are buckets because you are less than 9 feet away on every shot.

When I watch Golf, I'll see a player slump, knowing he hit a shot badly, but it still winds up on the green, just not as close to the cup as he would've liked. I understand the ultimate goal is to get the ball into the cup as quickly as possible, but you can still recover if you "miss".

Kind of like a player who rattles a ball. You can still recover if a player misses.

However, I would be a fool not to admit that the intellectual requirement to hole out from long distances is far greater, but this is beyond the ability of human intelligence to precisely figure out, you would need a computer, thus the reason for the designated landing areas of the fairway and green. If we go by that standard, no game is more difficult than Golf. But I think it would be silly to do so.

If you're comparing the intelligence and ability needed to play "ideal" golf, which for me is an Eagle on every Par 3 and 4, and an albatross on every 5 or more simply, to make every possible shot on the first try, to the intelligence and ability needed to shoot an Accustats 1000 in a race to 11, I can't argue with you. There's no comparison.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. To make every possible shot on the first try??? I would argue that the perfect score in golf is probably around (18) under par.

Hope you reply, as I've put some thought into this. Anyway, how's your poker game?

Sorry to enter the argument so late, but I am really surprised that people can go to these lengths to argue that pool may be as hard as golf...

 

[subdude1974]

memikey, if I ever get over that way I will sure let you know. That course is beautiful and I hear Abu Dhabi is a great place to visit.

Me too. Look forward to it.

 

[subdude1974]

To play scratch golf is a significant achievement. Even with my limited experience with the game, I can see the extreme difficultly of playing an even par round, even on an easy public course.

But I think you and Sub sell pool short as an intellectual challenge, and falsely compare running a rack or two of pool to playing an entire round of golf. I think it would be better to compare a run of 150 in straight to playing a scratch round of golf. Now if you tell me the latter is a lot more difficult to achieve, I simply can't believe you.

Unless you have played a par round, you have no idea of the difficulty. And the differnece s the difficulty of every golf course changes. I know of a golf course that from the back tees,it doesnt even have a handicap because it is unplayable. I coudl take a 10 handicapper out and he would break 150. So you cant compare a run of 150 in straight you cant compare to an even par round sya in the US OPEN.

 

[subdude1974]

Sorry to enter the argument so late, but I am really surprised that people can go to these lengths to argue that pool may be as hard as golf...

Exactly.

 

[midnightpulp]

If you're comparing the intelligence and ability needed to play "ideal" golf, which for me is an Eagle on every Par 3 and 4, and an albatross on every 5 or more simply, to make every possible shot on the first try, to the intelligence and ability needed to shoot an Accustats 1000 in a race to 11, I can't argue with you. There's no comparison.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. To make every possible shot on the first try??? I would argue that the perfect score in golf is probably around (18) under par.

It's supposed to be ridiculous. What are we comparing here? Ideal golf to ideal pool? A round of Ideal Golf is impossible given the nature of the game. An accustats rating of 1000 is possible in a short race, but has anyone shot a 1000 over the course of a whole tournament?

And again, whether you guys believe it or not, it's just your opinion that golf is harder. You can't prove it. Our old friend DCP thought pool was harder. It's all relative. There's people out there who will pick up something faster than another. Personally, I do agree with you guys that golf is harder because I have no experience with Golf.

In order to determine the difficulty of any game, we have to figure out what constitutes proficiency. Is an A player equal to a scratch golfer? A shortstop equal to a mini-tour player? If we agree, then the next step is figure out what percentage of all pool players and golfers are at that level, and I seriously doubt there's a significant amount more in percentage of A players, actual A players than scratch golfers. But again, how do we cross compare?

I think people underrate the difficulty of championship level pool because they have gotten hot a few times, put together some runs, consistently get out, and believe if they had the "time" they can be a pro, but have already determined they have no chance to play elite level golf. It's perception bias.

And again, I agree with you guys, but Golf is not significantly harder.

 

[subdude1974]

If you're comparing the intelligence and ability needed to play "ideal" golf, which for me is an Eagle on every Par 3 and 4, and an albatross on every 5 or more simply, to make every possible shot on the first try, to the intelligence and ability needed to shoot an Accustats 1000 in a race to 11, I can't argue with you. There's no comparison.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. To make every possible shot on the first try??? I would argue that the perfect score in golf is probably around (18) under par.

It's supposed to be ridiculous. What are we comparing here? Ideal golf to ideal pool? A round of Ideal Golf is impossible given the nature of the game. An accustats rating of 1000 is possible in a short race, but has anyone shot a 1000 over the course of a whole tournament?

And again, whether you guys believe it or not, it's just your opinion that golf is harder. You can't prove it. Our old friend DCP thought pool was harder. It's all relative. There's people out there who will pick up something faster than another. Personally, I do agree with you guys that golf is harder because I have no experience with Golf.

In order to determine the difficulty of any game, we have to figure out what constitutes proficiency. Is an A player equal to a scratch golfer? A shortstop equal to a mini-tour player? If we agree, then the next step is figure out what percentage of all pool players and golfers are at that level, and I seriously doubt there's a significant amount more in percentage of A players, actual A players than scratch golfers. But again, how do we cross compare?

I think people underrate the difficulty of championship level pool because they have gotten hot a few times, put together some runs, consistently get out, and believe if they had the "time" they can be a pro, but have already determined they have no chance to play elite level golf. It's perception bias.

And again, I agree with you guys, but Golf is not significantly harder.

You say an IDEAL golfer would eagle every hole. Is an ideal pool player going to run 500 balls in straight pool or make every ball every time he breaks? No. That is a ridiculous comment. It is my opinion that golf is harder than any game in pool. And that is the opinion of anyone who plays both well. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and you are no exception. Good luck to you. Thanks for the debate.

 

[BPG24]

I appreciate the detailed response, not a smug type of "Denial is not just a blah, blah, blah."

It's worth nothing that if your lifetime highrun is 150, you probably will get killed in world-class straight pool competition. Maybe not today, since the talent pool is not what it was, but in its in heyday, it stands to reason a player who has "only" run 150 would have little chance of competiting with the Mosconi's, Miz's, Hopkins's, etc... Blackjack has run over 200. Put up an 8 or 9 pack in 9 ball competition, and I remember reading a post of his where he say he considers himself a middle of the road pro.

What is perfect pool? An Accustats rating of a 1000? What is perfect golf? A hole in one on every hole? Again, I don't think it's a fair comparison, because Par 4 and 5's were purposely designed to take more than one stroke to play, so it's impossible to acheive perfection based on a score.

However, I think it's impossible to objectively define the "difficulty" of any game. Memikey had it right. Anything performed at its highest level will take a great amount of intelligence or agility or athleticism. So it all kind of evens out. First we have to determine what constitues proficiency at any given game. In pool, is a B player considered profecient? A high C? In Golf, is it a 10 Handicap, 15? Then we have to measure the number of players who have reached profeciency against how people play the game as whole and find out a percentage.

But we can't do this, cause proficiency is a matter of opinion. Compared with the general population, a C player is pretty good, but there's a lot who think a C rated player isn't very good.

I'm not informed enough to really argue this point, but how does every shot besides putting require precise calculations when you have such large targets as the fairway and green? When I watch Golf, I'll see a player slump, knowing he hit a shot badly, but it still winds up on the green, just not as close to the cup as he would've liked. I understand the ultimate goal is to get the ball into the cup as quickly as possible, but you can still recover if you "miss".

However, I would be a fool not to admit that the intellectual requirement to hole out from long distances is far greater, but this is beyond the ability of human intelligence to precisely figure out, you would need a computer, thus the reason for the designated landing areas of the fairway and green. If we go by that standard, no game is more difficult than Golf. But I think it would be silly to do so.

If you're comparing the intelligence and ability needed to play "ideal" golf, which for me is an Eagle on every Par 3 and 4, and an albatross on every 5 or more simply, to make every possible shot on the first try, to the intelligence and ability needed to shoot an Accustats 1000 in a race to 11, I can't argue with you. There's no comparison.

Hope you reply, as I've put some thought into this. Anyway, how's your poker game?

I think that the talent level in straight pool is smaller mainly because the game is not near as popular as 8,9,10 ball and one pocket. I have never been around anyone who i would consider even a semi pro level 14.1 player. It's a beautiful game to watch especially for me because my offensive gear never caught up to the rest of my game even when i played pool everyday.

Perfect pool to me is never loosing control of the table. Whether that be running out everytime or playing jam up safes when you can't get out so you can return to the table without giving up control. Some may have a different opinion. That's the thing about pool, you don't have to be the best player. you can beat a much better or more accomplished player if you keep him in his seat, or when he gets to the table make sure he can in no way gain control.

Perfect golf according to many of the pros that have been interviewed is birdie or better on every single hole. I would have to agree with them. Hitting every green in regulation and 1 putting would be perfect enough as far as I am concerned. Many pros believe that someday this will happen, a great player will get hot and break par on every hole in one round. I am not sure i agree because the pressure would be so great that i don't think any human could handle it. JMO

Some people believe what you mentioned about making eagle on par 3's and 4's and double eagle's on par 5's is perfect. Meaning that you would never need your putter because anytime you could reach the hole you would have to knock it in. To me, that is so unrealistic that I kind of dismiss it as being possible. Although it would be fun to watch.


Your question about precise calculations on shots other than putting.
The targets you are shooting at are much smaller than you think, especially on tour. fairways are 15 yards wide and sometimes smaller, and when you fly the ball 300 yards in the air it is very difficult to determine where it may land. the green is not your target on approach shots in pro level golf, the flag or a specific area around the flag is your target. It all depends on the way your target area is contoured.
If you could play on the same type of grass everywhere in the world and every shot could be hit form the same length of grass and every shot be on level ground than that would eliminate alot of the factors that go in to calculating each shot. Then you would only be dealing with the elements, trajectory, distance and spin control, working the ball one way or the other, and being able to focus on making a perfect swing.

Course management used to be the most important tool any golfer could learn in order to shoot low scores. Some argue that because of technology, players getting stronger/more fit etc, that course management is a thing of the past. I disagree with them wholeheartedly!!! Last years Master's is a great example of how important it is to make the correct decisions all the time. Zach Johnson won by making correct decisions and putting himself in the best possible place he could on each hole to make the lowest score possible. He never hit a 325 yard drive or even tried to reach the par 5's in 2 shots.

Another fun thing to point out about golf is the patience and discipline it takes to memorize the rule book...
If you have never read it or even tried to interpret some of the wording on specific rules you will be amazed at how crazy it really is.


You touched on rating pool players and how different people view each type of player. I agree that ones perception of what a great player is could only be based on what they have experienced or seen themselves. I hate handicap systems because there is no clear cut way to determine what a "B" player is. I really would rather not go into that because it could cause 50 more pages to be added to this thread.


POKER.......

Well, let's just say that i have been blessed with the ability to understand how and why making correct decisions effects the amount of money I end up with in the long run. Poker is the most frustrating game on earth IMO. Some days the correct decision works and some days it doesn't. The game has been good to me overall but sometimes it makes me want to break everything in site.
Gotta love it

 

[midnightpulp]

You say an IDEAL golfer would eagle every hole. Is an ideal pool player going to run 500 balls in straight pool or make every ball every time he breaks? No. That is a ridiculous comment. It is my opinion that golf is harder than any game in pool. And that is the opinion of anyone who plays both well. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and you are no exception. Good luck to you. Thanks for the debate.

I don't know. That's why it's hard to compare the relative difficulty of the games because we have no concrete definition of what constitutes proficiency in either game.

And going by that, I'm with the opinion that it all evens out at the higher levels, because the percentage of people who are expert or professional at something relative to the number of overall players is probably similar in all endeavors.

If forced to answer, I think the hardest sports are the more deterministic ones that require great athleticism. You have people who get into Golf or Pool at a late age and become competent at it, and achieve a high level. Hell Kenny G is a scratch golfer. It's near impossible to do that with Basketball, football, baseball. You can't learn to jump high or throw hard. You either have it or you don't. You can have great hand eye coordination, intellect relative to the game, but if you can't run fast, throw hard, jump high, you're not going to be elite at those sports. Top athletes have all of that.

 

[BPG24]

Sorry to enter the argument so late, but I am really surprised that people can go to these lengths to argue that pool may be as hard as golf...

That's the thing, the ones who argue that pool is close to as difficult just don't understand why they are wrong. There are some things in pool that are difficult and I love the game but pool is just not even in the same world as golf when you factor everything in.

 

[jon21588]

Both sports are VERY hard. I enjoy golf because I KNOW I'll never be good. Pool pisses me off because I put so much time and effort into it and can't be consistant. Well I guess the only answer is that neither of the two is easy. IMO

 

[midnightpulp]

That's the thing, the ones who argue that pool is close to as difficult just don't understand why they are wrong. There are some things in pool that are difficult and I love the game but pool is just not even in the same world as golf when you factor everything in.

I think at the world class level the relative difficulty is in the same world. There's probably a similar percentage number of players in both games who can call themselves world class. I think we're wrong to compare the intrinsic difficulty of both games, because a standard of difficulty never remains constant. Simple things can be taken to a different level by experts.

What I do agree with is that it's easier to reach an intermediate or advanced level in pool than it is in golf.

 

[BPG24]

I think at the world class level the relative difficulty is in the same world. There's probably a similar percentage number of players in both games who can call themselves world class. I think we're wrong to compare the intrinsic difficulty of both games, because a standard of difficulty never remains constant. Simple things can be taken to a different level by experts.

What I do agree with is that it's easier to reach an intermediate or advanced level in pool than it is in golf.

I understand how you feel but you are in the minority by a landslide. Pool is just not near as complicated as Golf. The difficulty levels are not really even comparable. You might be able to compare putting with pool. That is very similar on a difficulty level. As a whole the games aren't close.

Ask yourself these questions

1. Which sport is more physically demanding?

2. Which sport has 10 times more variables in each decision that has to be made?

3. Which sport requires you to battle more elements during play?

4. Which sport requires the greatest level of concentration?

Are you seeing the trend??????????

the answer is the same in every question

 

[midnightpulp]

I understand how you feel but you are in the minority by a landslide. Pool is just not near as complicated as Golf. The difficulty levels are not really even comparable. You might be able to compare putting with pool. That is very similar on a difficulty level. As a whole the games aren't close.

Ask yourself these questions

1. Which sport is more physically demanding?

2. Which sport has 10 times more variables in each decision that has to be made?

3. Which sport requires you to battle more elements during play?

4. Which sport requires the greatest level of concentration?

Are you seeing the trend??????????

the answer is the same in every question

I understand, which is why I said it's kind of pointless to compare the intrinsic difficulty of both games. You have to consider the level of difficulty when each game is played at a world class level, then I think it evens out.

Your questions:

1. Golf. 2. Golf. 3. Golf, but the elements affect everyone equally so you can argue the standard of proficiency drops. A 73 now might become a great score. 4. This can honestly be debated. I can't even imagine the concentration needed to run 300 balls, or play one pocket at its highest levels.

Okay, let's consider the games at a world class level. How is world class pool less complicated than world class golf? Yes, fundamental pool strategy and execution is easier than golf, but there's going to be a point reached where it suddenly becomes very complicated, either to strategize or execute. Otherwise, major pool tournaments would be a crapshoot and every strong A player and shortstop would have a strong chance to win, but like golf, it's the same players near the top of the field everytime.

Pool is easier at its basic levels, but like every sport, there's a top tier where it suddenly becomes mind bogglingly difficult. It's easier to conceive of running 300 than conceiving of shooting a 59. Really, all we need to do is stay in line, get good position on our break shots, get good spreads, a little luck, and we should be there before we know it, but why is it so hard to do?

Again, going back to memikey's post. I believe there's a certain point all sports have where the difficulty to reach that point is about the same, because you're competing against the standards set by other people, not necessarily competing against the difficulty of the game.

Honestly, is Mosconi's run of 15 World Titles between 41 and 57 really that less impressive or less difficult to do than Tiger's run of majors? I would say the difficulty factor is about equal. Pool is the simpler game, but to reach it's highest levels is as equally difficult to that of Golf's highest.

 

[BPG24]

Again, going back to memikey's post. I believe there's a certain point all sports have where the difficulty to reach that point is about the same, because you're competing against the standards set by other people, not necessarily competing against the difficulty of the game.

Honestly, is Mosconi's run of 15 World Titles between 41 and 57 really that less impressive or less difficult to do than Tiger's run of majors? I would say the difficulty factor is about equal. Pool is the simpler game, but to reach it's highest levels is as equally difficult to that of Golf's highest.

to the first paragraph..

If you are playing the person than that explains why you don't understand. The person doesn't matter when playing at a high level. You are playing the table and sometimes yourself. The difficulty of the game has everything to do with which sport is tougher. Example : If I break and run out in any pool game it doesn't matter if Efren is my opponent, he still loses the game. If I run out a race to 7 or a race to 150 in straight pool then Efren or Willie or whoever still loses. It doesn't even matter how good they are.

to the second paragraph..

Not to take away from what Willie did back then, but do you really think he was facing the same worldwide competition as Tiger is today? Of course not, Mosconi was playing the best players in the area maybe even the best players in the country. Plus he doesn't have to play all of the best players in the field at one time over 4 days. He only has to beat one at a time and his stiffest competition could be eliminated before he has to play them.

.................................................................................

You also made a comment about the conditions in golf effecting everyone the same. That is definitely not true. Weather conditions dramatically change course conditions and that can happen at anytime during any of the 4 days of a golf tournament.

..............................................................................

You say that the mental part can be argued... You are right pool players do argue about it, but until pool is played at the same high level it is now but in 100+ degree heat while walking up and down mountains or while the wind is blowing 40 miles per hour and heavy rain is falling on the table than there is no comparison there either. Try concentrating like that and get back to me

 

[midnightpulp]

to the first paragraph..

If you are playing the person than that explains why you don't understand. The person doesn't matter when playing at a high level. You are playing the table and sometimes yourself. The difficulty of the game has everything to do with which sport is tougher. Example : If I break and run out in any pool game it doesn't matter if Efren is my opponent, he still loses the game. If I run out a race to 7 or a race to 150 in straight pool then Efren or Willie or whoever still loses. It doesn't even matter how good they are.

to the second paragraph..

Not to take away from what Willie did back then, but do you really think he was facing the same worldwide competition as Tiger is today? Of course not, Mosconi was playing the best players in the area maybe even the best players in the country. Plus he doesn't have to play all of the best players in the field at one time over 4 days. He only has to beat one at a time and his stiffest competition could be eliminated before he has to play them.

.................................................................................

You also made a comment about the conditions in golf effecting everyone the same. That is definitely not true. Weather conditions dramatically change course conditions and that can happen at anytime during any of the 4 days of a golf tournament.

..............................................................................

You say that the mental part can be argued... You are right pool players do argue about it, but until pool is played at the same high level it is now but in 100+ degree heat while walking up and down mountains or while the wind is blowing 40 miles per hour and heavy rain is falling on the table than there is no comparison there either. Try concentrating like that and get back to me

What I meant is that new standards are set by others, which evolves the difficulty of the game. Yes, I agree pool is about playing the table, but at the end of the day, you're left with your achievements, and in order to figure out where you stand, you have to compare yourselves to others. And for most, reaching a world class level in pool doesn't happen, even though they might be able to beat a world class player on any given day, thus the problem with a short race format. Performing a world class feat and achieving a world class level are two different things.

I'm sure you've pulled off world class golf shots, but you wouldn't consider yourself a world class player?

Pool's similar. I can get hot and beat SVB in a short race to 5, but I have no chance in hell of beating him in a race to 100. I'd probably win 10 games.

I think we're also finding out Golf tournaments are structured a hell of a lot better than pool tournaments. A player has one bad match, and has to fight back from the loser's side, and he gets no reward if he wins his next few matches 11-0, 11-0, 11-0. He'll still be on the losers side. At least in Golf, you can recover over the next 3 days if you play badly on day one.

 

[subdude1974]

I think that the talent level in straight pool is smaller mainly because the game is not near as popular as 8,9,10 ball and one pocket. I have never been around anyone who i would consider even a semi pro level 14.1 player. It's a beautiful game to watch especially for me because my offensive gear never caught up to the rest of my game even when i played pool everyday.

Perfect pool to me is never loosing control of the table. Whether that be running out everytime or playing jam up safes when you can't get out so you can return to the table without giving up control. Some may have a different opinion. That's the thing about pool, you don't have to be the best player. you can beat a much better or more accomplished player if you keep him in his seat, or when he gets to the table make sure he can in no way gain control.

Perfect golf according to many of the pros that have been interviewed is birdie or better on every single hole. I would have to agree with them. Hitting every green in regulation and 1 putting would be perfect enough as far as I am concerned. Many pros believe that someday this will happen, a great player will get hot and break par on every hole in one round. I am not sure i agree because the pressure would be so great that i don't think any human could handle it. JMO

Some people believe what you mentioned about making eagle on par 3's and 4's and double eagle's on par 5's is perfect. Meaning that you would never need your putter because anytime you could reach the hole you would have to knock it in. To me, that is so unrealistic that I kind of dismiss it as being possible. Although it would be fun to watch.


Your question about precise calculations on shots other than putting.
The targets you are shooting at are much smaller than you think, especially on tour. fairways are 15 yards wide and sometimes smaller, and when you fly the ball 300 yards in the air it is very difficult to determine where it may land. the green is not your target on approach shots in pro level golf, the flag or a specific area around the flag is your target. It all depends on the way your target area is contoured.
If you could play on the same type of grass everywhere in the world and every shot could be hit form the same length of grass and every shot be on level ground than that would eliminate alot of the factors that go in to calculating each shot. Then you would only be dealing with the elements, trajectory, distance and spin control, working the ball one way or the other, and being able to focus on making a perfect swing.

Course management used to be the most important tool any golfer could learn in order to shoot low scores. Some argue that because of technology, players getting stronger/more fit etc, that course management is a thing of the past. I disagree with them wholeheartedly!!! Last years Master's is a great example of how important it is to make the correct decisions all the time. Zach Johnson won by making correct decisions and putting himself in the best possible place he could on each hole to make the lowest score possible. He never hit a 325 yard drive or even tried to reach the par 5's in 2 shots.

Another fun thing to point out about golf is the patience and discipline it takes to memorize the rule book...
If you have never read it or even tried to interpret some of the wording on specific rules you will be amazed at how crazy it really is.


You touched on rating pool players and how different people view each type of player. I agree that ones perception of what a great player is could only be based on what they have experienced or seen themselves. I hate handicap systems because there is no clear cut way to determine what a "B" player is. I really would rather not go into that because it could cause 50 more pages to be added to this thread.


POKER.......

Well, let's just say that i have been blessed with the ability to understand how and why making correct decisions effects the amount of money I end up with in the long run. Poker is the most frustrating game on earth IMO. Some days the correct decision works and some days it doesn't. The game has been good to me overall but sometimes it makes me want to break everything in site.
Gotta love it

a better example of that is Tiger winning the British Open and maily only used his irons. I think he hit like a wood 4 times that week. Now that is thinking your way around a golf course.