Grip/Stroke/Stance fundamentals suck

Drop The Rock

Drop The Rock

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Silver Member
The greatest weakness of my game is one of the most important fundamentals :angry:

I have trouble keep my grip consistent, mostly because I think about it and my stroke mechanics a lot. It drives me absolutely mental. It feels like every time I walk in the pool hall I kind of start over a little bit as a result and it takes a couple hours for me to finally settle with something and then next time I play, rinse and repeat.

I know that part of what I need to do is continue doing stroke drills and stroke shots. What I'm trying to develop is a less is more type of stroke. I used to grip the cue very firm and have gradually loosened over the last 6 months (been playing for just shy of 2 years). I have noticed that when I am really loose and "flick" the cue that I get the most action and control with the least amount of effort. However, a result that spawns from this is my wrist turning in towards my body sometimes which gives me minor Jeremy Jones syndrome (Jeremy is a champ and good guy btw, I just want to have more fundamental technique).

So what I have been trying to do recently is have a closed but light grip on the cue with a final release. I try to keep my thumb pointed down (perpendicular to the ground) and when I pull the trigger use my wrist and fingers to proper the cue forward. The less speed or spin I need from the cue ball, the less flick. It kinda looks a bit like Ko Pin Yi's or jeffery ignacio's stroke. The problem I have is NOT THINKING ABOUT IT. When I think about my mechanics I end up losing rhythm, my "aim" and my confidence.

The other problem I have, which I think causes some of the my stroke issues is that my stance is too open and back arches uncomfortably, this causes my weight to be unevenly distributed and makes my bridge shoulder sore as hell. I also tilt my head which makes my neck sore.

So I guess I need some help reconstructing my fundamentals from head to toe because its causing aches and pains (I'm 22 so this shouldn't be happening) and is holding back my game. I'm in Houston if anyone can help in person! Otherwise is some of you teachers out there can do video correspondence that would help too.
 
As far as the stance goes, you really need an instructor or at least someone knowledgeable who can check out your stance. If it hurts, you might need to adjust something. As far as grip, bridge, stroke, etc., you really can drive yourself mental for a LONG time worrying about it. My advice (born from spending almost 3 years monkeying around with my stroke) is to ignore it. Lay a coke/beer bottle on its side and stroke in and out of the mouth until your comfortable doing it without ever touching the bottle with the shaft/tip. You can stroke along the edge of a rail, too, but you want some measureable penalty for wiggle. The mechanics will be correct for you when you can stroke straight, repeatable and without having to even think about your grip, wrist angle, elbow, etc. I've taken people who've never touched a pool cue and gotten them to stroke laser straight without ever going over any micro mechanics on grip pressure, etc within 5 minutes. The successful result drives the rest. Do you think about everything your ankle and toes do when climbing stairs? I'll bet not, and I'll bet you don't fall down because of it. Breaking down complex motions (especially without someone to watch/advise) will drive you nuts and make things worse. Focus on results and let the mechanics fall where they may. Find creative ways to challenge your stroke (apart from pocketing balls), like hitting precise paths/targets with the CB. Focus on what your stick/tip is doing, not what the hand behind your line of sight is doing.
 
West Point 1987 said:
As far as the stance goes, you really need an instructor or at least someone knowledgeable who can check out your stance. If it hurts, you might need to adjust something. As far as grip, bridge, stroke, etc., you really can drive yourself mental for a LONG time worrying about it. My advice (born from spending almost 3 years monkeying around with my stroke) is to ignore it. Lay a coke/beer bottle on its side and stroke in and out of the mouth until your comfortable doing it without ever touching the bottle with the shaft/tip. You can stroke along the edge of a rail, too, but you want some measureable penalty for wiggle. The mechanics will be correct for you when you can stroke straight, repeatable and without having to even think about your grip, wrist angle, elbow, etc. I've taken people who've never touched a pool cue and gotten them to stroke laser straight without ever going over any micro mechanics on grip pressure, etc within 5 minutes. The successful result drives the rest. Do you think about everything your ankle and toes do when climbing stairs? I'll bet not, and I'll bet you don't fall down because of it. Breaking down complex motions (especially without someone to watch/advise) will drive you nuts and make things worse. Focus on results and let the mechanics fall where they may. Find creative ways to challenge your stroke (apart from pocketing balls), like hitting precise paths/targets with the CB. Focus on what your stick/tip is doing, not what the hand behind your line of sight is doing.
Click to expand...

That part right there! You bring up good points sir!
 
I have shot straight shots over and over and over. Nothing fancy. Center english. Only focused on what the cue ball does. Do enough of these without thinking and your stroke will feel more natural. Guess your building muscle memory. Works for me. I go back to it when I feel my stroke is funky. This site is great but can really mess with your game. Had me thinking about everything. Trying new things. Stopped doing all that. Just need to shoot more for my game to improve.

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Knuckles face down (180 degrees position) at the floor.........
Back of your palm flat and facing the wall or windows (as it may be).........
Elbow 90 degrees........pendelum neutral position........

Learn your Bio-Rythymn and stick to it....develop a consistent...rigid if need be...pre-shot routine.....this is critical or your mind & thoughts will drift..... get a pre-shot routine & structure.
Make all decisions out of the box and only enter when to ready to shoot.....stick to do......don't linger in stance trying to figure out your shot or confirming it (Do that outside the Box).
Basically strive to achieve a blank mind. when in shooting stance.....think of nothing other than seeing the object ball and pocket....if you start thinking....just reset and start over again.

Grip pressure....start out by holding your cue and shooting with only your thumb and index finger....every 6-8 shots add another finger gently on the wrap or cue and continue this until
your normal grip is achieved.......pads of your fingers with your grip......always pads of your fingers.....and handshake with your grip.....it's not a baseball grip.....just a soft handshake.

Mechanics will never let you down until it becomes poor mechanics.....Pay closer attention to feet, body and head position/alignment because through your eyes when sighting the shot,
everything always will look straight even when if it's crooked.......remember that your eyesight is always straight even when your body or cue isn't even positioned straight by any stretch,


Matt B.
 
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Stroke mechanics

I have made and remade my stance and other stuff hundreds of times...until I bought mark Wilson's book. I did what he said in the book and my straight pool high run increased by 20 balls in one month. The book is expensive, but now that I have read it I would have gladly paid double!
 
Recording your practice sessions will help. You will be surprised by how different what you think you are doing is from what you are actually doing.
 
Everybody has their own style. Very few picture book stances and strokes even among the pros. Consistency is building muscle memory and a repeating pre shot routine allowing the subconscious to do what it already knows how to do. This is being in the zone. Purposely concentrating on too many things is a detriment. If you concentrate on all the things that go into walking you wouldn't be able to walk.
 
My game improved more after I quit worrying about if I was doing something right or trying to fix what was wrong. Now I just play pool.
 
Give me a call and I'll help you...........

Drop The Rock said:
The greatest weakness of my game is one of the most important fundamentals :angry:

I have trouble keep my grip consistent, mostly because I think about it and my stroke mechanics a lot. It drives me absolutely mental. It feels like every time I walk in the pool hall I kind of start over a little bit as a result and it takes a couple hours for me to finally settle with something and then next time I play, rinse and repeat.

I know that part of what I need to do is continue doing stroke drills and stroke shots. What I'm trying to develop is a less is more type of stroke. I used to grip the cue very firm and have gradually loosened over the last 6 months (been playing for just shy of 2 years). I have noticed that when I am really loose and "flick" the cue that I get the most action and control with the least amount of effort. However, a result that spawns from this is my wrist turning in towards my body sometimes which gives me minor Jeremy Jones syndrome (Jeremy is a champ and good guy btw, I just want to have more fundamental technique).

So what I have been trying to do recently is have a closed but light grip on the cue with a final release. I try to keep my thumb pointed down (perpendicular to the ground) and when I pull the trigger use my wrist and fingers to proper the cue forward. The less speed or spin I need from the cue ball, the less flick. It kinda looks a bit like Ko Pin Yi's or jeffery ignacio's stroke. The problem I have is NOT THINKING ABOUT IT. When I think about my mechanics I end up losing rhythm, my "aim" and my confidence.

The other problem I have, which I think causes some of the my stroke issues is that my stance is too open and back arches uncomfortably, this causes my weight to be unevenly distributed and makes my bridge shoulder sore as hell. I also tilt my head which makes my neck sore.

So I guess I need some help reconstructing my fundamentals from head to toe because its causing aches and pains (I'm 22 so this shouldn't be happening) and is holding back my game. I'm in Houston if anyone can help in person! Otherwise is some of you teachers out there can do video correspondence that would help too.
Click to expand...

Everything centers around your dominant eye.

The things you do to make this right or that right with your stance and stroke can contort your body so it can seem like nothing is right.

Your probably opposite eye dominant and by getting everything right in the preshot and coming down right your body will find it's natural position needing just a few little tweaks here and there but nothing major.

This is a one time offer for free so take advantage of it for sure.

I know what I'm talking about.

Just give me a call when your by a pool table.

I have a site called perfectaimbilliards.com and have helped thousands of players get this right for themselves.

715-563-8712 after 3:00 PM central time is the best.

Talk to you soon..........
 
I sounds like you're still gripping the cue too firmly if your wrist turns inwards. Every awkward deviation of your body parts or stroke is usually caused by excess muscle tension. I think it would help if you'd provide some photos or videos of your stance and stroke. Concentrating on the tip is a good advice, but every now and then you should video your shooting and check if you are doing things correctly. Bad habits and bad form tend to creep in there and you shouldn't be trying to strengthen them by ignoring their presence.
 
kollegedave said:
I have made and remade my stance and other stuff hundreds of times...until I bought mark Wilson's book. I did what he said in the book and my straight pool high run increased by 20 balls in one month. The book is expensive, but now that I have read it I would have gladly paid double!
Click to expand...

I have modeled my stance this way as well! just recently I realized what I was missing and thats getting my hips out of the way a bit more!
 
I've been hanging around here a little more than 2 years and every day it's the same thing.......I've never taken a martial arts class but I'm kinda fascinated by them and I've read a lot about them. ( so why haven't I taken a class? I can't tell you unless you want to read from now until Christmas.)

What I read is there's a reason why they're called martial ARTS. That's because they are, in fact, ARTS. The only people who learn how to defend themselves using a martial art are those who study them to the point where they become ARTISTS. That doesn't mean people who do not have the talent nor the time to devote to this end should not study them...far from it!

They provide great exercise. They'll improve your balance, breathing, body control, this, that, the other thing. It's just that if you want to learn how to defend yourself, you should take self- defense classes - not martial arts classes; unless your one of the minority who have the talent and time to attain the skill of a martial ARTIST.

I think I've obtained the skill of of an artist in pool. ( well; in shot-making at least. I only play in my basement. That might be changing soon. I live in Chicago. I think I'll be heading out to Chris' or Red Shoes in the not too distant future) I'm 55, I've been playing since I was 11 and I've played well over 10,000 hours.

Only recently can I say I've reached the level of an artist in shot making. Only recently can I say I'm able to fully enjoy the game. Don't get me wrong. I've enjoyed it for 44 years and I encourage any 11 year old who has access to a pool table to take up the game for that reason; but, every moment of those 10,000 hours has also also been accompanied with frustration and unfullfillment

So work on everything - grip, stance, alignment, etc., etc., etc. Frankly, you HAVE to work on those things. There's no other way to improve; and take joy in the improvement you make; but, don't expect the frustration and unfullfillment to ever go away. Maybe I should say that another way. It'll go away if you lock yourself in your basement for 10,000 hours, but I think you'd much rather suffer through a little frustration and unfullfillment than suffer through what caused me to do that.

When I was 11 and I used to watch a great player, it was like I was watching him open a door knob with only his thumb and his index finger. I'd go to my table and I'd try to open a doorknob with only my thumb and my index finger. I'd say to myself, "How does he do that?" So after 44 years you might think I've obtained skill opening a door knob with only my thumb and my index finger. If so, you'd be wrong. It's taken me 10'000 hours, but I've designed and built three new fingers...all very similar to my index finger.

When I read these threads, I say to myself, "they're wracking their brains analyzing and giving each other tips on how to open a door knob with only their thumb and their index finger." My advise would be .... work on the fundamentals etc. You have to! Just don't wrack your brains. Accept the fact that the frustration and the unfulfillment are never going to go away unless you want to play for 10,000 hours.The joy you'll get from the game will FAR outweigh the frustration and unfulfillment. Then just keep practicing, have patience, and watch as those other three fingers start appearing little by little. Even if all three of them never fully develop, you'll get great satisfaction in knowing what has appeared, you designed and built .
 
Play Great Pool

I starting playing pool a about 2 1/2 years ago after I retired. So I'm a little older than you but I had the same problem basically. Inconsistent approach to the ball, inconsistent results.

One of the things that has helped me tremendously is following the advise on building a good stance from a book written by Mark Wilson titled "Play Great Pool". If you don't have hundreds to spend on lessons this is the cheapest way to get good coaching that I know of.

The book describes, among many other things, how to build good fundamentals, starting with your approach to the ball, building a solid stance, and developing a repeatable and consistent stroke.

There are many good instructors out there and picking the right one for you will certainly help but Mark's book is a good starting point that I would recommend to anyone with an interest in improving their game. Best of luck!

Here is the link to his page: http://playgreatpool.com
 
I think seeking a qualified instructor to develop good fundamentals would be beneficial for you. Mark Wilson has a really good book "Play Great Pool" that really covers the fundamentals. His view on the stance is different than taught by many instructors. As far as your grip, after you have completed your stroke check your back hand. Are you knuckles facing slightly upward? Is there a little air between your palm and the stick? If not, you are probably gripping the cue too tight during the stroke which can cause undesired cue movement.
 
Drop The Rock said:
The greatest weakness of my game is one of the most important fundamentals :angry:

I have trouble keep my grip consistent, mostly because I think about it and my stroke mechanics a lot. It drives me absolutely mental. It feels like every time I walk in the pool hall I kind of start over a little bit as a result and it takes a couple hours for me to finally settle with something and then next time I play, rinse and repeat.

I know that part of what I need to do is continue doing stroke drills and stroke shots. What I'm trying to develop is a less is more type of stroke. I used to grip the cue very firm and have gradually loosened over the last 6 months (been playing for just shy of 2 years). I have noticed that when I am really loose and "flick" the cue that I get the most action and control with the least amount of effort. However, a result that spawns from this is my wrist turning in towards my body sometimes which gives me minor Jeremy Jones syndrome (Jeremy is a champ and good guy btw, I just want to have more fundamental technique).

So what I have been trying to do recently is have a closed but light grip on the cue with a final release. I try to keep my thumb pointed down (perpendicular to the ground) and when I pull the trigger use my wrist and fingers to proper the cue forward. The less speed or spin I need from the cue ball, the less flick. It kinda looks a bit like Ko Pin Yi's or jeffery ignacio's stroke. The problem I have is NOT THINKING ABOUT IT. When I think about my mechanics I end up losing rhythm, my "aim" and my confidence.

The other problem I have, which I think causes some of the my stroke issues is that my stance is too open and back arches uncomfortably, this causes my weight to be unevenly distributed and makes my bridge shoulder sore as hell. I also tilt my head which makes my neck sore.

So I guess I need some help reconstructing my fundamentals from head to toe because its causing aches and pains (I'm 22 so this shouldn't be happening) and is holding back my game. I'm in Houston if anyone can help in person! Otherwise is some of you teachers out there can do video correspondence that would help too.
Click to expand...

You're going in the wrong direction by using your wrist and fingers to propel the cue. You even noticed yourself, that it's causing you to twist the cue. Grip the cue with a full fist, then relax the grip when you get into your stance and focus on shooting with your arm. Wrist and fingers are only needed in certain types of specialty shots.

As for your stance, when you force your body to work against it's natural anatomy, you will experience pain and you could even do damage to yourself. Unfortunately, a lot of people who claim to be experts in the game don't understand the fundamentals of stance. You can start by reading some basic snooker books. You will have to make some minor adjustments for pool, but those books will lead you on a better path than some of the people who claim to be experts here.

As for thinking about things too much, it's a double-edged sword. You have to think about things to improve and for awhile you will feel like you my never play naturally again. But you must trust that your homework will pay off for you and you will eventually develop your style. You're not ready to 'go unconscious' at the pool table. All that will do is embed bad habits into your unconscious mind that will be hard to break.
 
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