grip?
- Thread starter trob
- Start date
trob said:
Just a couple thoughts,
I didn't read all the post so maybe someone else already said,
If you practicing this shot went so well when putting your grip back farther on the cue stick, I would try to look a little farther into it than 'putting my grip back farther helps'.
What else is changing by putting your grip back there?
Is your grip itself a little looser or a little tighter?
Is your wrist a little straighter because of this?
Have you changed the angle that your body is at to the shoot because of this change?
I don't think putting the grip back farther on the stick should make such a drastic difference all on it's own. Examine it a little more?
JR
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Patrick Johnson said:
When I mentioned above, I meant the cue stick, not the cue ball. Maybe the same answer though.
Here is a thought. You state that you need half the power to get the action you want when you are super-aware of where you are hitting the cue ball. I assume this is with the loose grip. Could it be the loose grip and not the tight grip giving you this action?
EXPERIMENT: Taking an Elephant ball and marking the top of the ball with something to know that the ball is being placed in the same position. Shoot at a spot with a loose grip and try drawing the ball a specific distance. Now position the ball again and try hitting the same spot/same force with a tight grip. See if the draw is the same if you hit in the same spot.
Of course, may be a lot of other variables there to make a accurate determination. Just seems like there is more to it than just tip placement accuracy. JMO
Patrick Johnson said:
I noticed that I was missing certain shots that I was certain I was aiming correctly. Also, missing center pocket. (like when you are drawing out of a ball in the pocket and you want to come straight back. You perform the shot, but, the cue ball exits off to one side).
I removed my index finger because of a post I read where Dee Atkins shoots in this method. I tried it to see what the outcome would be. It corrected a lot of these errors I was being faced with. Don't know if I will continue to shoot this way or not, but, it has brought about the question, WHY?
Klockdoc...
But there is the issue. IDEALLY, the grip pressure all the way to the end of the follow through should be VERY similar to the pressure prior to CB contact.
The notion of progressively tightening as you point out in your Chinese handcuff analogy is what "snatching" or "grabbing" is.
Of course, I said "ideally" and there may be some SMALL increase in grip pressure going through the CB but there should be no conscious attempt to grip tighter and in fact, a conscious effort not to.
Try shooting a bunch of easy straight ins at varying speeds and FEEL your pre-contact grip pressure and then HOLD your follow through position and FEEL your grip pressure again.
They should be VERY, VERY similar....IMHO.
Regards,
Jim
But there is the issue. IDEALLY, the grip pressure all the way to the end of the follow through should be VERY similar to the pressure prior to CB contact.
The notion of progressively tightening as you point out in your Chinese handcuff analogy is what "snatching" or "grabbing" is.
Of course, I said "ideally" and there may be some SMALL increase in grip pressure going through the CB but there should be no conscious attempt to grip tighter and in fact, a conscious effort not to.
Try shooting a bunch of easy straight ins at varying speeds and FEEL your pre-contact grip pressure and then HOLD your follow through position and FEEL your grip pressure again.
They should be VERY, VERY similar....IMHO.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
Good points, Jim. However, I may have not made myself clear in my definition. I was trying to state that with a loose grip, you cannot lose the cue stick. People think that the stick will fly out of their hands if there is not a small amount of pressure in the grip.
My point was, and I show this when I explain to people, is on the forward motion the front edge of the space that youcradle the cue stick wedges the stick as your hand goes forward. This is because your hand slightly tips upward at the end of the forward motion of the stroke. This prevents the cue from sliding out of your hand even though you have a loose grip.
Hope this clears it up.
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"Action" usually means action on the cue ball (spin and/or speed). I don't know what it could mean with respect to the stick.
Well, I said it feels like I need half the power. I don't think that's because the cue ball is actually doing twice as much with the same hit; I think it's because I'm actually hitting the cue ball where I expected to hit it (for a change), so I'm getting the cue ball action I feel I should.
As I said before, CB "action" (speed and spin) is determined solely by where, how hard and from what direction your tip hits the CB. Your grip can only change CB action by changing one or more of these things.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
Another thought. Bet you wish I wouldn't think so much..
If you have a loose grip on the cue stick, would you think that the cue stick could have a bouncing effect when hitting the CB and give it more action, whereas if you have a tight grip, the action on the CB would be deadened because a bounce is not present?
Don't think so...
pj
chgo
klockdoc said:Another thought. Bet you wish I wouldn't think so much..
If you have a loose grip on the cue stick, would you think that the cue stick could have a bouncing effect when hitting the CB and give it more action, whereas if you have a tight grip, the action on the CB would be deadened because a bounce is not present?
Are you talking about the tip bouncing off the CB multiple times during one normal stroke? That's really not possible because of how fast the CB leaves the tip. It doesn't matter what your grip does to the cue in the moment immediately after contact; unless there's some obstruction in the CB's path, it's looooooong gone by the time the cue can react in any way to your grip.
-Andrew
klockdoc said:
Oh. Then I'm not sure what you mean by "bouncing" and how it might result in extra spin.
-Andrew
Try thinking of it this way, klockdoc:
If the only way to affect CB action is to change
- where you hit the CB
- from what direction you hit the CB
- how hard you hit the CB
...which of these things might be changed by this?
pj
chgo
av84fun...Rather than a "side to side pinch" most players "wrap" which ever fingers they prefer to use around 3 sides of the cue...the outside, bottom and inside surfaces.
In effect, they form a U shaped "cradle" supporting those 3 surfaces of the cue with the web between the thumb and index finger supplying pressure on the top surface of the cue.
Patrick is supposedly ignoring me...again...(but actually never has) but I didn't think he would respond to my question about which two points he "pinches".
But since he admits to wrapping his fingers around the butt, then as he well knows, there is pressure applied to the entire circumferance of the butt...not just two sides.
In addition, there should be no "pinching" on two or any other number of "sides" of the cue.
In fact, the greatest amount of grip pressure should be applied involuntarily by the weight of the butt pressing on the bottom of the U formed by the curled fingers.
The only other pressure is applied by the mere fact of wrapping the fingers around the circumference of the cue.
You can shoot a VERY hard shot by just relying on the pressure supplied by the weight of the butt without any conscious application of pressure with the fingers.
Certainly, no "pinching" should take place and in fact, should be avoided at all costs since overt finger grip pressure requires tension in the muscles of the forearm and nothing good can come from that.
Just try it out. Cradle the butt in the U of your fingers and stroke shots progressively harder while attempting not to allow ANY additional pressure to be applied. At the end of the stroke, someone should be able to pull the cue out of your "grip"....actually non-grip...with ease.
You will find that you can SMACK shots without any conscious application of grip pressure.
Regards,
Jim
In effect, they form a U shaped "cradle" supporting those 3 surfaces of the cue with the web between the thumb and index finger supplying pressure on the top surface of the cue.
Patrick Johnson said:
Patrick is supposedly ignoring me...again...(but actually never has) but I didn't think he would respond to my question about which two points he "pinches".
But since he admits to wrapping his fingers around the butt, then as he well knows, there is pressure applied to the entire circumferance of the butt...not just two sides.
In addition, there should be no "pinching" on two or any other number of "sides" of the cue.
In fact, the greatest amount of grip pressure should be applied involuntarily by the weight of the butt pressing on the bottom of the U formed by the curled fingers.
The only other pressure is applied by the mere fact of wrapping the fingers around the circumference of the cue.
You can shoot a VERY hard shot by just relying on the pressure supplied by the weight of the butt without any conscious application of pressure with the fingers.
Certainly, no "pinching" should take place and in fact, should be avoided at all costs since overt finger grip pressure requires tension in the muscles of the forearm and nothing good can come from that.
Just try it out. Cradle the butt in the U of your fingers and stroke shots progressively harder while attempting not to allow ANY additional pressure to be applied. At the end of the stroke, someone should be able to pull the cue out of your "grip"....actually non-grip...with ease.
You will find that you can SMACK shots without any conscious application of grip pressure.
Regards,
Jim
Andrew Manning said:
I guess I am "off track" in my synopsis of this gripping question..
I THINK that if I hit the CB with a tight grip, I get less action on the CB than when I hit it using a loose grip. I seriously THINK I am hitting it in the same spot. I thought there was a logical reason for this other than I am not hitting in the same spot. I guess that is it in a nutshell.
Oh, why we are still on this subject, what do you think of people that use the slip stroke? For those of you who do not know what this term means, it is when a poolplayer grips the cue forward on the aiming portion and then their hand slips back on the stick further for the shot?
Grip
The 'KISS' method is to balance the stick on your finger, go half the distance from the balance point towards the back of the cue, grip it
there.
Upon being down on a shot, have your tip right up next to cue ball, look at your grip arm, if it is not perpendicular to your upper arm, then slightly adjust your grip so that it is. That is where to grip it.
I was told this 'rule of thumb' 46 years ago, and you know what, it has worked all that time!!!! Imagine that???
The thing that disturbs me with today's young players is the fact that they grip their cue with a full fist (a security thing), and it definately throws off shots at the end of the stroke because the wrist can not break, and they are just oblivious to the fact!!!!
It also produces many unwanted 'security motions' which prevent their stroke from being a smooth straight line throughout the stroke. (throwing elbow outwardly at end of stroke for example). What it does, is affect their consistency of play, and consistency is the name of the game in Pool.
This is pretty much what I learned from a Pool book back in the early 60's (newer is not necessarily better in some cases, sometimes 'old school' is the best way), to grip your cue, you should grip it with 2 fingers and a thumb, the same way as if you walked up to a person and gripped their upper arm with 2 fingers and your thumb keeping your wrist straight. I use 3 fingers myself, but I have always tried to stick to the general principle. It allows your wrist to stay straight, and the cue pivots under your grip hand at the end of the stroke which keeps your stroke true.
The only problem that comes up with this grip is the power stroke. Particularly power draw shots. You have a tendency to believe that your tip will not do the work for you to draw enough distance back, so you have a tendency to grip it different for a 'more secure feeling' to shoot the shot. I find myself doing this sometimes, and I revert to holding it with the fleshy part of my hand between the thumb and index finger, but the problem with unconsciously doing that is that you forget to switch back to the finger grip, and it slightly effects the straightness of your stroke, which if playing on a high level, can cause you to miss a shot, and never get back to the table again.
If I am having an 'off night' or 'problems', I immediately focus in on my form and stroke, and realign myself for a nice smooth stroke, which might changing my grip back to the proper grip.
The 'KISS' method is to balance the stick on your finger, go half the distance from the balance point towards the back of the cue, grip it
there.
Upon being down on a shot, have your tip right up next to cue ball, look at your grip arm, if it is not perpendicular to your upper arm, then slightly adjust your grip so that it is. That is where to grip it.
I was told this 'rule of thumb' 46 years ago, and you know what, it has worked all that time!!!! Imagine that???
The thing that disturbs me with today's young players is the fact that they grip their cue with a full fist (a security thing), and it definately throws off shots at the end of the stroke because the wrist can not break, and they are just oblivious to the fact!!!!
It also produces many unwanted 'security motions' which prevent their stroke from being a smooth straight line throughout the stroke. (throwing elbow outwardly at end of stroke for example). What it does, is affect their consistency of play, and consistency is the name of the game in Pool.This is pretty much what I learned from a Pool book back in the early 60's (newer is not necessarily better in some cases, sometimes 'old school' is the best way), to grip your cue, you should grip it with 2 fingers and a thumb, the same way as if you walked up to a person and gripped their upper arm with 2 fingers and your thumb keeping your wrist straight. I use 3 fingers myself, but I have always tried to stick to the general principle. It allows your wrist to stay straight, and the cue pivots under your grip hand at the end of the stroke which keeps your stroke true.
The only problem that comes up with this grip is the power stroke. Particularly power draw shots. You have a tendency to believe that your tip will not do the work for you to draw enough distance back, so you have a tendency to grip it different for a 'more secure feeling' to shoot the shot. I find myself doing this sometimes, and I revert to holding it with the fleshy part of my hand between the thumb and index finger, but the problem with unconsciously doing that is that you forget to switch back to the finger grip, and it slightly effects the straightness of your stroke, which if playing on a high level, can cause you to miss a shot, and never get back to the table again.
If I am having an 'off night' or 'problems', I immediately focus in on my form and stroke, and realign myself for a nice smooth stroke, which might changing my grip back to the proper grip.
klockdoc said:I guess I am "off track" in my synopsis of this gripping question..
I THINK that if I hit the CB with a tight grip, I get less action on the CB than when I hit it using a loose grip. I seriously THINK I am hitting it in the same spot. I thought there was a logical reason for this other than I am not hitting in the same spot. I guess that is it in a nutshell.
Oh, why we are still on this subject, what do you think of people that use the slip stroke? For those of you who do not know what this term means, it is when a poolplayer grips the cue forward on the aiming portion and then their hand slips back on the stick further for the shot?
As you sit in your chair, look down to your rear hand and use the motion of moving your back hand forward as if you are shooting a shot. Keep your wrist straight and come as far forward as you can. Do this a few times to see where your hand stops. Then try it allowing your wrist to bend back and forth with the motion. You may notice that when you allow the wrist to flex back and forth the front of your hand will come a little closer to your face (if you are looking down toward your back hand). This loose wrist action will probably lift the butt of your cue a little higher and lower the cue tip minutely but it may be enough to change where you actually hit the cue ball. Another factor to take into consideration is how far your cue tip is away from the cue ball when your rear forearm is in the perpendicular position. Some people are as far away as 1 1/2" from the cue ball while others are 2 or 3 millimeters away from the cue ball when the forearm is in the perpendicular position. This can make a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE. It's just another thing that you have to consider if you're trying to fix something or change something.
Buddy Hall, once showed me where he hits the cue ball for maximum draw and where most other people hit the cue ball. And as I remember, it was at least 1/2 of a tip lower than I had ever hit a draw shot. Buddy uses the full grip and the pause stroke for whatever that is worth. That was a while back and at that time, he was quite comfortable with a LePro tip FWIW.
Just to throw in some more tidbits to dirty up the water, I don't think he bends his wrist either.JoeyA
JoeyA said:As you sit in your chair, look down to your rear hand and use the motion of moving your back hand forward as if you are shooting a shot. Keep your wrist straight and come as far forward as you can. Do this a few times to see where your hand stops. Then try it allowing your wrist to bend back and forth with the motion. You may notice that when you allow the wrist to flex back and forth the front of your hand will come a little closer to your face (if you are looking down toward your back hand). This loose wrist action will probably lift the butt of your cue a little higher and lower the cue tip minutely but it may be enough to change where you actually hit the cue ball. Another factor to take into consideration is how far your cue tip is away from the cue ball when your rear forearm is in the perpendicular position. Some people are as far away as 1 1/2" from the cue ball while others are 2 or 3 millimeters away from the cue ball when the forearm is in the perpendicular position. This can make a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE. It's just another thing that you have to consider if you're trying to fix something or change something.
Buddy Hall, once showed me where he hits the cue ball for maximum draw and where most other people hit the cue ball. And as I remember, it was at least 1/2 of a tip lower than I had ever hit a draw shot. Buddy uses the full grip and the pause stroke for whatever that is worth. That was a while back and at that time, he was quite comfortable with a LePro tip FWIW.
JoeyA
Thanks for you input Joey. I'm sure that that explanation will benefit those in need. My grip is actually in the correct position under normal circumstances. I was just playing around with it on different shots by trying different positions, different grips.
Just got out of a $50.00 entry 32 man tournament tonight. Took fourth. Little Justin Bergman got me 9-6. I noticed he only grips with the thumb and index finger. His other fingers used to hang outside and not touch any part of the butt. Now they kind of wrap around slightly. But, you can still tell they are loose to the butt.
klockdoc said:
klocdoc, $50 entry, 32 man... 4th place.... nothing to sneeze at. Nice work. Thanks for the LJB grip note. I like experimenting with different hand positions and different grips for different shots. Let me know when you have the next Epiphany, seriously.
JoeyA