Guerra Vs. Tonkin

[DeeDeeCues]

Tradition……..Okay……I cease and desist……that may be the dumbest remark I’ve ever heard when it comes to cue building that suggests heralded names in cue making do the same thing because of tradition. It suggests that these still active famous names in cue making basically function depending upon established habits spanning decades and decades of crafting remarkably wonderful, highly touted pool cues. It suggests these cue makers are what?

Lazy, maybe incapable of changing, stubborn, stuck in their ways, closed minded, impervious to new ideas or concepts…. Let’s stop & end the debate here and now. When you come up with the greatest cue makers build cues a particular way because of tradition that spans……70-80 yrs.of cue making, very likely longer……and never figured out a better way to improve cue making is so off the wall, debating is absolutely fruitless. You win….I concede…..you are the cue expert.

Where are the scientific studies? Are you incapable of actually reading or responding to that?

 

[Bavafongoul]

You won…..you know more than the top names in cue making……I’ll have Dennis Searing give you a call but if he’s not
available, I’m sure some of those stubborn old timers would love hearing your thoughts so maybe Richard Black or Bob Runde will give you a call instead. If not, I’ve spoken with Ernie Guitterez and Joel Hercek a few times in the past so I can try imposing on them. Ed Prewitt was going to make me 2 shafts before the CA ivory ban kept him from getting it done.
He’s a sweetheart of a guy so he might want to join in. Now I still have JerryR. and Bob Owen #s and we are close
pals so I know both of those guys would reach out if I asked them. If Deanoc was still active, he is friends with more
cue makers than me and he’d enjoy doing something like this to help me out. Would you mind if Barry gave you a call?

His dad, Gus,was pretty good at making cues or so I’ve heard. He taught his son the craft so Barry can vouch for his
dad. The best part is Dean & Barry are really close friends so if I can get hold of Dean, I know he can reach Barry. But
one thing I’ll make sure to tell these cue makers is their real world experience and knowledge is without any merit and
therefore cannot be considered. The only thing that matters is the scientific, empirical evidence they can produce to
support why they build cues the way I’ve described because it must be just a sheer coincidence that all the best names in cue making generally adhere to this unless a customer states differently. That’s just one of those rare coincidences involving thousands of cues they’ve produced over the decades. Nope, if they can’t produce evidence supporting that this was intentional and not the oddest of coincidental nuances how they all similarly crafted custom pool cues, then
anything written or said is meritless, at least in your mind. BTW, what color is the sky in your world? In mine, it’s blue.

p.s. TX….shooter_Hans

 

[DeeDeeCues]

You won…..you know more than the top names in cue making……I’ll have Dennis Searing give you a call but if he’s not
available, I’m sure some of those stubborn old timers would love hearing your thoughts so maybe Richard Black or Bob Runde will give you a call instead. If not, I’ve spoken with Ernie Guitterez and Joel Hercek a few times in the past so I can try imposing on them. Ed Prewitt was going to make me 2 shafts before the CA ivory ban kept him from getting it done.
He’s a sweetheart of a guy so he might want to join in. Now I still have JerryR. and Bob Owen #s and we are close
pals so I know both of those guys would reach out if I asked them. If Deanoc was still active, he is friends with more
cue makers than me and he’d enjoy doing something like this to help me out. Would you mind if Barry gave you a call?

His dad, Gus,was pretty good at making cues or so I’ve heard. He taught his son the craft so Barry can vouch for his
dad. The best part is Dean & Barry are really close friends so if I can get hold of Dean, I know he can reach Barry. But
one thing I’ll make sure to tell these cue makers is their real world experience and knowledge is without any merit and
therefore cannot be considered. The only thing that matters is the scientific, empirical evidence they can produce to
support why they build cues the way I’ve described because it must be just a sheer coincidence that all the best names in cue making generally adhere to this unless a customer states differently. That’s just one of those rare coincidences involving thousands of cues they’ve produced over the decades. Nope, if they can’t produce evidence supporting that this was intentional and not the oddest of coincidental nuances how they all similarly crafted custom pool cues, then
anything written or said is meritless, at least in your mind. BTW, what color is the sky in your world? In mine, it’s blue.

p.s. TX….shooter_Hans

You've just perfectly described tradition.

All the cuemakers you've mentioned are/were extraordinary masters of their craft, and I have the utmost respect for them. I am not aware of any scientific studies that led them to make the choices they made, and you aren't either.

Please do ask them about the actual scientific testing they have done. I have never said that they don't make great cues. I have said that I don't believe any quality cue is inherently better at hitting the cueball than another.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

You won…..you know more than the top names in cue making

I never said that. I just want to know the scientific testing that led them to make what they do. I want to hear about double blind testing, controlled conditions, spreadsheets full of data, etc.. I don't want to hear your emotional stories about someone being a great guy. You are, apparently unwilling to understand that.

 

[overlord]

I disagree….Cues can and do play better when the cue maker pays atttention to the components and balance. The very
best cue makers know the importance of weight proportionality when building the cue and relying on weight bolts too much undermines a cue’s tactile feel and overall balance. You do not want a 15.8 oz butt matched to a 3.4 oz shaft for a cue weight of 19.2 ozs. Instead, a 15. 2 oz. butt matched to a 4 oz. shaft would be better…..80/20 works great but I even prefer 78/22 & the truly great cue makers adhered to this design. If you doubt it, just check the cues they made over the years confirming it.

Balance is balance..........

 

[Shooter08]

Back to the original topic, I would still like to see the cues. Also is the Guerra a conversion or blank he fished, I didn’t think he did pointed cues. Unless I’m confused and thinking of someone else.

 

[smiling_Hans]

You won…..you know more than the top names in cue making……I’ll have Dennis Searing give you a call but if he’s not
available, I’m sure some of those stubborn old timers would love hearing your thoughts so maybe Richard Black or Bob Runde will give you a call instead. If not, I’ve spoken with Ernie Guitterez and Joel Hercek a few times in the past so I can try imposing on them. Ed Prewitt was going to make me 2 shafts before the CA ivory ban kept him from getting it done.
He’s a sweetheart of a guy so he might want to join in. Now I still have JerryR. and Bob Owen #s and we are close
pals so I know both of those guys would reach out if I asked them. If Deanoc was still active, he is friends with more
cue makers than me and he’d enjoy doing something like this to help me out. Would you mind if Barry gave you a call?

His dad, Gus,was pretty good at making cues or so I’ve heard. He taught his son the craft so Barry can vouch for his
dad. The best part is Dean & Barry are really close friends so if I can get hold of Dean, I know he can reach Barry. But
one thing I’ll make sure to tell these cue makers is their real world experience and knowledge is without any merit and
therefore cannot be considered. The only thing that matters is the scientific, empirical evidence they can produce to
support why they build cues the way I’ve described because it must be just a sheer coincidence that all the best names in cue making generally adhere to this unless a customer states differently. That’s just one of those rare coincidences involving thousands of cues they’ve produced over the decades. Nope, if they can’t produce evidence supporting that this was intentional and not the oddest of coincidental nuances how they all similarly crafted custom pool cues, then
anything written or said is meritless, at least in your mind. BTW, what color is the sky in your world? In mine, it’s blue.

p.s. TX….shooter_Hans

Very well said.

 

[Guerra Cues]

Back to the original topic, I would still like to see the cues. Also is the Guerra a conversion or blank he fished, I didn’t think he did pointed cues. Unless I’m confused and thinking of someone else.

Hi there,
I have been making cues for about 14 years now.
Through the process I went through a divorce and had to buy equipment again. Moved 3 times unfortunately and that set me back immensely costing me ginormous amounts of money, headaches and health issues, but that most of you never heard anything about that or that I am handicapped, I never used that as an excuse! However I stand behind the cues I build, there was a cue that I remember that I could have done a better job with some of the ringwork that was cnc’d.
I do not bury my head in the sand!!!
However I have seen work from other cuemakers that were 100 times worst than mine. Nobody talks about them because they are big names.
I stand behind my finish, my craftsmanship and if something is wrong I will repair it, or refinish and make it right. Ah and all my cues are cored which some other cuemakers don’t do it because they like the hit better of certain woods blah blah blah. That’s not consistency, look at SW cues as an example, some play amazing and some don’t!
Points or no points all my cues should and do play about the same way.
To answer your question I have been making cues with points for 10/11 years now.
On the beginning I only made plane janes.
Have I made mistakes in the past? Absolutely! Who didn’t? But always made it right and I stand by my work 100000000%.
I don’t like to see my name mixed with Pete Tonkin who is a good friend because this thread has nothing to do with me and him.
Ofcourse his cues are worth more than mine look at the amount of inlay and craftsmanship on Pete’s cues, insane amazing work!!!
However in playability it’s up to the players to be the judge.

 

[Flakeandrun]

Hi there,
I have been making cues for about 14 years now.
Through the process I went through a divorce and had to buy equipment again. Moved 3 times unfortunately and that set me back immensely costing me ginormous amounts of money, headaches and health issues, but that most of you never heard anything about that or that I am handicapped, I never used that as an excuse! However I stand behind the cues I build, there was a cue that I remember that I could have done a better job with some of the ringwork that was cnc’d.
I do not bury my head in the sand!!!
However I have seen work from other cuemakers that were 100 times worst than mine. Nobody talks about them because they are big names.
I stand behind my finish, my craftsmanship and if something is wrong I will repair it, or refinish and make it right. Ah and all my cues are cored which some other cuemakers don’t do it because they like the hit better of certain woods blah blah blah. That’s not consistency, look at SW cues as an example, some play amazing and some don’t!
Points or no points all my cues should and do play about the same way.
To answer your question I have been making cues with points for 10/11 years now.
On the beginning I only made plane janes.
Have I made mistakes in the past? Absolutely! Who didn’t? But always made it right and I stand by my work 100000000%.
I don’t like to see my name mixed with Pete Tonkin who is a good friend because this thread has nothing to do with me and him.
Ofcourse his cues are worth more than mine look at the amount of inlay and craftsmanship on Pete’s cues, insane amazing work!!!
However in playability it’s up to the players to be the judge.

Credit to you on the aesthetic of the cue I am looking at, fine pieces of wood used (ebony and olive wood), and the finish looks tidy. I am hoping I can spare enough time to have it in my hands and have a hit with it, but it is a little far from me and the current time window a little restrictive. Hopefully this weekend can make the journey.

The Tonkin cue Is also made from stellar wood and appears finished beautifully, hit well and felt nice in hand. Issue being a little bump here or there by the previous owner (which may or may not be made more acceptable with a little re-finish).
Both are going for around the same price, both are better prices than I have seen anywhere else.
The comments above from others would perhaps be more useful or relevant if I was having a cue made. But it looks like some misread my need in the thread, and have taken the opportunity to throw shade (or bicker amongst themselves).

Some comments were more helpful than others, and encouraged me to further consider factors like re-sell etc. and understand that realistically, I am not in the market for buying and selling. Just looking for another cue to give a forever home too (maybe gifting or handing down one day). I simply would like a cue of similar spec in two locations to avoid lugging it around (having recently experienced the annoyance of loitering around an airport for a checked bag for hours)

Not my first rodeo with regard to finding a cue. Crucial factor for me will be the hit, balance and the general feeling. Given that both cues are to the exact same spec regarding weight, length and thickness as the cue I am currently using (except one having a wrap). So the point of the thread was to sum up gut feels really. Some people like myself are not the most decisive.

There's another Tonkin I am looking at now also, a wrapless sneaky for the same ballpark (albeit with one shaft instead of two - shafts aren't really needed tbh)

 

[Flakeandrun]

Come on Man, where's the PIC's

Will DM pics to those interested if you message me. Will remind me to airdrop them to my computer. Don't have the time right now.

 

[Guerra Cues]

Credit to you on the aesthetic of the cue I am looking at, fine pieces of wood used (ebony and olive wood), and the finish looks tidy. I am hoping I can spare enough time to have it in my hands and have a hit with it, but it is a little far from me and the current time window a little restrictive. Hopefully this weekend can make the journey.

The Tonkin cue Is also made from stellar wood and appears finished beautifully, hit well and felt nice in hand. Issue being a little bump here or there by the previous owner (which may or may not be made more acceptable with a little re-finish).
Both are going for around the same price, both are better prices than I have seen anywhere else.
The comments above from others would perhaps be more useful or relevant if I was having a cue made. But it looks like some misread my need in the thread have taken the opportunity to through shade (or bicker amongst themselves).

Some comments were more helpful than others, and encouraged me to further consider factors like re-sell etc. and understand that realistically, I am not in the market for buying and selling. Just looking for another cue to give a forever home too (maybe gifting or handing down one day). I simply would like a cue of similar spec in two locations to avoid lugging it around (having recently experienced the annoyance of loitering around an airport for a checked bag for hours)

Not my first rodeo with regard to finding a cue. Crucial factor for me will be the hit, balance and the general feeling. Given that both cues are to the exact same spec regarding weight, length and thickness as the cue I am currently using (except one having a wrap). So the point of the thread was to sum up gut feels really. Some people like myself are not the most decisive.

There's another Tonkin I am looking at now also, a wrap less sneaky for the same ballpark (albeit with one shaft instead of two - shafts aren't really needed tbh)

Pete makes an amazing cue, you will not be disappointed at all.
If I can make a cue one day with half of his CNC skills I would be super happy.
I have always been a bit “famous” for the figure of the woods I have on my stash and the combos I make.
If you pick up any of my cues feel free to reach out to me.
If the cue is dinged up let me know and I will refinish it for free.

 

[Flakeandrun]

Back to the original topic, I would still like to see the cues. Also is the Guerra a conversion or blank he fished, I didn’t think he did pointed cues. Unless I’m confused and thinking of someone else.

Will send to you a bit later on

Edit: Turns out can't DM pics?

 

[Flakeandrun]

Pete makes an amazing cue, you will not be disappointed at all.
If I can make a cue one day with half of his CNC skills I would be super happy.
I have always been a bit “famous” for the figure of the woods I have on my stash and the combos I make.
If you pick up any of my cues feel free to reach out to me.
If the cue is dinged up let me know and I will refinish it for free.

Much appreciated
This particular cue is untouched, and part of someone's enormous collection. Aesthetically, it's top of the pile right now. Hoping it feels as good in hand as it looks. Threadless butt-cap is my only nit-pick at this point.

 

[Guerra Cues]

Much appreciated
This particular cue is untouched, and part of someone's enormous collection. Aesthetically, it's top of the pile right now. Hoping it feels as good in hand as it looks. Threadless butt-cap is my only nit-pick at this point.

The problem is that with the bumper that had a thread made the butt cap weaker and in some cases I had customers that broke the butt cap when they hit the cue on the concrete floor.

 

[Shooter08]

Hi there,
I have been making cues for about 14 years now.
Through the process I went through a divorce and had to buy equipment again. Moved 3 times unfortunately and that set me back immensely costing me ginormous amounts of money, headaches and health issues, but that most of you never heard anything about that or that I am handicapped, I never used that as an excuse! However I stand behind the cues I build, there was a cue that I remember that I could have done a better job with some of the ringwork that was cnc’d.
I do not bury my head in the sand!!!
However I have seen work from other cuemakers that were 100 times worst than mine. Nobody talks about them because they are big names.
I stand behind my finish, my craftsmanship and if something is wrong I will repair it, or refinish and make it right. Ah and all my cues are cored which some other cuemakers don’t do it because they like the hit better of certain woods blah blah blah. That’s not consistency, look at SW cues as an example, some play amazing and some don’t!
Points or no points all my cues should and do play about the same way.
To answer your question I have been making cues with points for 10/11 years now.
On the beginning I only made plane janes.
Have I made mistakes in the past? Absolutely! Who didn’t? But always made it right and I stand by my work 100000000%.
I don’t like to see my name mixed with Pete Tonkin who is a good friend because this thread has nothing to do with me and him.
Ofcourse his cues are worth more than mine look at the amount of inlay and craftsmanship on Pete’s cues, insane amazing work!!!
However in playability it’s up to the players to be the judge.

Hi there,
I have been making cues for about 14 years now.
Through the process I went through a divorce and had to buy equipment again. Moved 3 times unfortunately and that set me back immensely costing me ginormous amounts of money, headaches and health issues, but that most of you never heard anything about that or that I am handicapped, I never used that as an excuse! However I stand behind the cues I build, there was a cue that I remember that I could have done a better job with some of the ringwork that was cnc’d.
I do not bury my head in the sand!!!
However I have seen work from other cuemakers that were 100 times worst than mine. Nobody talks about them because they are big names.
I stand behind my finish, my craftsmanship and if something is wrong I will repair it, or refinish and make it right. Ah and all my cues are cored which some other cuemakers don’t do it because they like the hit better of certain woods blah blah blah. That’s not consistency, look at SW cues as an example, some play amazing and some don’t!
Points or no points all my cues should and do play about the same way.
To answer your question I have been making cues with points for 10/11 years now.
On the beginning I only made plane janes.
Have I made mistakes in the past? Absolutely! Who didn’t? But always made it right and I stand by my work 100000000%.
I don’t like to see my name mixed with Pete Tonkin who is a good friend because this thread has nothing to do with me and him.
Ofcourse his cues are worth more than mine look at the amount of inlay and craftsmanship on Pete’s cues, insane amazing work!!!
However in playability it’s up to the players to be the judge.

You have always been highly recommended by a friend of mine who collects cues. I believe we did chat years ago at on time. Shooter08

 

[Flakeandrun]

The problem is that with the bumper that had a thread made the butt cap weaker and in some cases I had customers that broke the butt cap when they hit the cue on the concrete floor.

Interesting. I am not au fait with the structural integrity of cues. I had a threaded butt-cap to take M6 extension (Mezz) made for my Vigus where I am now (as it is a threaded butt, but had threadless cap), and having observed the threading on the butt it does look finicky and problematic. I can't remember the exact thread on that butt, but was awkward to find a solution prior to having one made here in Asia. I posted about it before on this forum somewhere.
I'm 6' 1" - so not too tall, not too short. I also play capably with both hands, so need for an extension is few and far between. Just one of those things I'd rather have and not need, than need and not have.

 

[Guerra Cues]

You have always been highly recommended by a friend of mine who collects cues. I believe we did chat years ago at on time. Shooter08

Thank you for your kind comments.
I’m not an internet cuemaker, I have a real shop, real wood, real equipment, unfortunately I don’t have the time I would like to have because I have a full time job and a family. Also had some serious health issues in the last 3/4 years that are under control now.
The shop is not the tidiest one but I keep it somewhat organized (to me).

 

[Guerra Cues]

Interesting. I am not au fait with the structural integrity of cues. I had a threaded butt-cap to take M6 extension (Mezz) made for my Vigus where I am now (as it is a threaded butt, but had threadless cap), and having observed the threading on the butt it does look finicky and problematic. I can't remember the exact thread on that butt, but was awkward to find a solution prior to having one made here in Asia. I posted about it before on this forum somewhere.
I'm 6' 1" - so not too tall, not too short. I also play capably with both hands, so need for an extension is few and far between. Just one of those things I'd rather have and not need, than need and not have.

I also went the Predator style bumper for extensions, easier for the user and lots of extensions out there that will fit it too.

 

[Guerra Cues]

Interesting. I am not au fait with the structural integrity of cues. I had a threaded butt-cap to take M6 extension (Mezz) made for my Vigus where I am now (as it is a threaded butt, but had threadless cap), and having observed the threading on the butt it does look finicky and problematic. I can't remember the exact thread on that butt, but was awkward to find a solution prior to having one made here in Asia. I posted about it before on this forum somewhere.
I'm 6' 1" - so not too tall, not too short. I also play capably with both hands, so need for an extension is few and far between. Just one of those things I'd rather have and not need, than need and not have.

Also Larry Vigus is an outstanding friend to have. Amazing person and his cues are amazing as well.

 

[smiling_Hans]

Thank you for your kind comments.
I’m not an internet cuemaker, I have a real shop, real wood, real equipment, unfortunately I don’t have the time I would like to have because I have a full time job and a family. Also had some serious health issues in the last 3/4 years that are under control now.
The shop is not the tidiest one but I keep it somewhat organized (to me).

I don’t think you need to explain yourself or prove anything to anyone on here. I know every time a cue maker gets mentioned then it is usually a problem.

I think your cues look great. Looking forward to seeing more from you.