Handi-Cap Leagues and Tournys' destroying the quality of American Talent?

JMS

AzB Silver Member
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I just read this post on facebook by a well known top player from the late
80's and early 90's. To be honest I agree 100% with him. Here is what he wrote. What do you guys think?

"I think the handy cap system has destroyed pool. When I started playing pool there were no such systems in place and if you wanted to get better you did that by playing better players than yourself. Its kinda like welfare, if you give free money and food away it doesn't give people incentive to find a good job to improve there life. Same with pool if you keep giving them monster spots they will take it not realizing its hurting pool and their own game in general. Its like a free shot to win without much effort. If you only have to run out to the 6or7 or have to go to half the game your opponent does its not really winning to me. I think it close to impossible to reproduce the kinda players we have seen in the past if this continues and I'm sure it will.
There is so much to say on this topic that a book can be written about it.

2. If you really analyze the situation the only players who complain are the people who are just under the pros or better players. These are the guys who play good or very good but cant beat the the 2 or 3 guys who play better, but do beat them on occasion. They are also the guys who play everyday and some for a living. They complain and get lower players to complain who really dont care because they know they cant win it anyway. But the lower players forget that even if they ban the top 3 players that there are still 20 players they cant beat either.
So now that I cant play for example you still have the same problem. There are now still many players that play way better than most of the field lol. If the lower players complained about them would they be banned too? Then when they are banned what about the top players in that group who play better than the others? At this rate there would be no tourney at all because someone always plays better than someone else. But worry not B players you will be ok because like I said The lower players wont complain because they like to play and some do want to get better and watch and play better players.

3. Im not saying give pros or good players free money or anything like that. Most tourneys nowadays are short races and that is not an advantage to a good player especially if it alternate breaks race to 5 and bar table to boot which is very popular nowadays. Also remember that anybody that is a really good player or a pro have paid their dues and have lost a lot of money playing better players and lost many tourneys to get where they are now. There is no easy road to the top and that goes for any sport or business. You must lose to to win in almost anything especially pool. But its not that players fault. Its usually the people running the tourney who don't really care one way or the other but because they get paid per head (green fee) they listen to them.

4. Realize people that most tourneys I have attended pay more than one place lol. You don't have to win to make money. Some tourneys pay half the field which should be enough incentive for all to play no matter who is in because only a handful of players will place in the top five anyway but you can still place and make money or get your entry fee back if you play well and you might even improve your game in the process :) Is it really a challenge without everyone in you state or city playing? If you have a job then why does it matter. If you are in it for the money only then you should play better competition and earn it the right way :)

5. If you took the people who complain and the people they don't let in it would probably be a wash and you would end up with the same amount of players or more. Why should the people who haven't even been in the game long be able to dictate who can play and who cant? Do you guys want to see pool grow? Isn't that why most of you who complain started to play the game. Wasn't it to get better and one day be on television? Now you complain and good players are not allowed who have put countless hours in the game and you forfeit the possibility to watch and learn for a small entry fee. Now what happens is the pro or good player doesn't come around no more for obvious reasons and you get to learn how to play incorrectly from the B and C players and probably give them your money for lessons or play them cheap sets to get better. Doesn't seem wise to me"
 
I agree with this. The last time I played a league there was 3 individuals who couldn't win and said they was going back to play APA 9 ball because they got points for losing LOL. Since when should the weaker feild dictate anything or anyone be rewarded for losing. The mentality of pool's future generation.
 
I agree with this 100%. I've played on leagues where weaker player wouldn't want to practice because they didn't want to move up in skill level because it would hurt the team. If everyone moves up then they have to split the team. I just don't see where league play helps your game out at all.

I used to play 4 nights a week in league when I first started playing,n ow I just play in one. I play in league just so I have an excuse to get out of the house. I find league play boring. I lost interest in league, especially when I see weaker player playing each other. I don't want to watch a race to 2 games last an hour. I feel like it'll program my mind to feel like missing is ok lol.

Playing even against a great player really humbles you. It lets you know where your at.
 
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I find a huge fault in this potential causation argument:

The implication that the players who would take the spots would otherwise be top talents if a handicap system were not available.

It's a huge problem when you look at the general personality of championship players, in all endeavors. The kind of player that rises to the very top are generally strong type A personalities with an almost unhealthy appetite for competition.

The kind of player who has the natural talent and appetite for competition is not going to fight to stay a 4 in the APA. Their desire for perfection simply won't let them. They're more likely the type of player who looks for other avenues of competition.

When I read these arguments, I liken them to the suggestion that the YMCA is killing the NBA, or that flag football is harming the NFL, or company softball games are detrimental to MLB. Those arguments sound preposterous because the scale of those sports creates a disconnect between professional athlete and amateur player, whereas pool is seen as a recreational game, with a single pool of players, and therefore the necessary disconnect between amateur and professional doesn't seem obvious.
 
It sounds like crying to me.
If it's handicapped and you don't like it, don't enter.
randyg
 
Basically, it appears the OP would prefer to have a lot fewer players playing. Because that's what would happen if his wishes were put into practice.

"I'm a really good player, and anyone that isn't really good needs to practice more, and gamble more, and then maybe you'll be good enough to play me."

That's the mentality, and that's cool, if thats the way ya wanna be. But if that was the only way to play and enjoy yourself, you would find 80%-90% fewer players in the current places to play. Because we all can't fit into that description.

I will never be able to play at the level you folks describe. I started too late in life, work too much and have a busy family life. Should I stop playing because I can't play like you guys, and never will? Or can I play in a handicapped league setting where I can have a chance, even against stronger competition? Don't ya think that there are some who come to the game through the league system that eventually graduate to being a hotshot gambling player?

It apprears there are far more of "us" than there are of "you". Our money spends just as well at the pool halls and bars, and at the equipment retailers. But apparently we, the league players, are destroying pool... sigh.
 
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All was very well said. I personally play in all types of pool. League, more for fun and to play with my buddies. Not very much competition there. Handicapped tourneys, more competition and you do have to play pretty close to perfect to win one of these. I have found that we all want to win our weekly's and our monthly's. So you do try to play your best. Then i go to Turning Stone or other Joss stops to see how i measure up. Not every one has the same desire i have. And i don't have the same Desire as a top Pro. There is enough pool for all of us which should be Great for Game.:D
 
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Leagues need to be looked at as something for the recreational player that likes to socialize. I do feel they are great for rooms, serve as a stepping stone to those that progress beyond league play. I have also seen that it gives those that want to teach, give back a venue to do as in coaching their team mates.

The problem is those in the leagues that think that league play is what pool is all about.

It works for some, others it doesn't kinda like a low stance works for some and a higher stance works for others.
 
The problem is those in the leagues that think that league play is what pool is all about.

And how would you explain "what pool is all about"?

Certainly, leagues are not all things for all people. Certainly, there is a whole lot of other things in the pool world. But I keep hearing that sort of sentiment, without any sort of explanation of showing a league player "what pool is all about"...

The leagues are the best organized thing in the pool world today. If the pro's were as well organized (both the players and the promoters) we wouldn't be having the explosion of threads that we are seeing today.

What is it all about? I'm just a dumb league player.

Oh wait, I forgot. It's a gambling thing..... sorry, I keep forgetting that is what pool is all about. Silly stupid me.
 
I do NOT agree.
Here is my story. I joined a handicapped league about 2 years ago. I had the opportunity to play other players who are way better than I am. Because of the handicap, the better players had to take it very serious to win me and sometimes they even lost. I also met some really good players that are kind enough to offer their advices on how I can improve. :p, thanks to the handicapped league.
Were it not for the leagues, I probably ended up playing other players at my same level and I won't improve as quickly as I have.

However, I do believe when you reach a certain skill level, you should seek non-handicapped leagues or tournaments to further improve yourself.

Just my $0.02.




I just read this post on facebook by a well known top player from the late
80's and early 90's. To be honest I agree 100% with him. Here is what he wrote. What do you guys think?

"I think the handy cap system has destroyed pool. When I started playing pool there were no such systems in place and if you wanted to get better you did that by playing better players than yourself. Its kinda like welfare, if you give free money and food away it doesn't give people incentive to find a good job to improve there life. Same with pool if you keep giving them monster spots they will take it not realizing its hurting pool and their own game in general. Its like a free shot to win without much effort. If you only have to run out to the 6or7 or have to go to half the game your opponent does its not really winning to me. I think it close to impossible to reproduce the kinda players we have seen in the past if this continues and I'm sure it will.
There is so much to say on this topic that a book can be written about it.

2. If you really analyze the situation the only players who complain are the people who are just under the pros or better players. These are the guys who play good or very good but cant beat the the 2 or 3 guys who play better, but do beat them on occasion. They are also the guys who play everyday and some for a living. They complain and get lower players to complain who really dont care because they know they cant win it anyway. But the lower players forget that even if they ban the top 3 players that there are still 20 players they cant beat either.
So now that I cant play for example you still have the same problem. There are now still many players that play way better than most of the field lol. If the lower players complained about them would they be banned too? Then when they are banned what about the top players in that group who play better than the others? At this rate there would be no tourney at all because someone always plays better than someone else. But worry not B players you will be ok because like I said The lower players wont complain because they like to play and some do want to get better and watch and play better players.

3. Im not saying give pros or good players free money or anything like that. Most tourneys nowadays are short races and that is not an advantage to a good player especially if it alternate breaks race to 5 and bar table to boot which is very popular nowadays. Also remember that anybody that is a really good player or a pro have paid their dues and have lost a lot of money playing better players and lost many tourneys to get where they are now. There is no easy road to the top and that goes for any sport or business. You must lose to to win in almost anything especially pool. But its not that players fault. Its usually the people running the tourney who don't really care one way or the other but because they get paid per head (green fee) they listen to them.

4. Realize people that most tourneys I have attended pay more than one place lol. You don't have to win to make money. Some tourneys pay half the field which should be enough incentive for all to play no matter who is in because only a handful of players will place in the top five anyway but you can still place and make money or get your entry fee back if you play well and you might even improve your game in the process :) Is it really a challenge without everyone in you state or city playing? If you have a job then why does it matter. If you are in it for the money only then you should play better competition and earn it the right way :)

5. If you took the people who complain and the people they don't let in it would probably be a wash and you would end up with the same amount of players or more. Why should the people who haven't even been in the game long be able to dictate who can play and who cant? Do you guys want to see pool grow? Isn't that why most of you who complain started to play the game. Wasn't it to get better and one day be on television? Now you complain and good players are not allowed who have put countless hours in the game and you forfeit the possibility to watch and learn for a small entry fee. Now what happens is the pro or good player doesn't come around no more for obvious reasons and you get to learn how to play incorrectly from the B and C players and probably give them your money for lessons or play them cheap sets to get better. Doesn't seem wise to me"
 
Without handicap system or giving a weaker player the chance to win, pool would lose a great deal of money. People call it "ruining pool", but really its just ruining their ability to rob people. League players and B/C level players make up the majority of pool. Those are the people buying cues, cases, pumping money into thing things that sponsor pros or sponsor tournaments that pros play in. A lot of them would quit if they had to play A players even time and time again. Sure SOME would stick around and possibly get good, but the majority would move on to something else.

A lot of people put this "whats wrong with pool" tag on everything, but its really its a personal issue.
 
I agree with this 100%. I've played on leagues where weaker player wouldn't want to practice because they didn't want to move up in skill level because it would hurt the team. If everyone moves up then they have to split the team. I just don't see where league play helps your game out at all.

The league players who don't practice so they won't move up are the ones who are just playing so their friends can hold a team together. Recently we asked one of my wife's cousins to join a team so we wouldn't have to drop one of our higher level players. If she weren't playing pool with us, she'd be playing Bingo on Sunday nights. She doesn't plan to practice, and we don't plan to teach her much, but she really enjoys playing pool with us.

The higher level player on our team is a good friend of mine, who also plays in the local tournaments and plays money games, usually winning out or at least getting paid. He works at a billiard supply store, practices whenever there aren't any customers in the room, and mingles with everybody he knows is better than him at something so he can improve his pool game. He practices constantly, he teaches us a great deal of what he's learning, and he really enjoys playing pool with us.

Both of these people are league players. One's an APA 2/1 (lowest possible) and the other's an APA 7/9 (highest possible), and they're both more than happy to be on the same team and contribute to the team's efforts.

The other six people on our team range in skill level between the top and bottom, and we're all putting in as much time as we have available to make our games better. I've moved up two skill levels in the last year, and I've only got about an hour a week to dedicate to real practice. I'd say about half the people in our league, who play weekly, would be playing monthly or even less often if the league weren't an option. Half of our league is about 1500 people who wouldn't be buying cues, tips, tables for the house, gloves, chalk holders, cue holders, break cues, better cues, better tips, shaping tools, etc.

The leagues are keeping pool on the map, and more so, they're opening the game up to people who wouldn't be playing pool otherwise. The people at the top of the pecking order are also doing other-than-league pool, which is just fine, and I'm thinking as many people are turning pro as would otherwise.

I'm sorry you don't get to take my money because I don't throw it away at the pool table. I take my lessons in trade for teaching algebra. It works for me.
 
This is just another example of a "top player" who can't see the forest through the trees.
 
all this is really simple. american pool players are the only sect that cant seem to grasp very simple ideas. look at tennis or golf.... successful sports..... the top players in any area are not barred from entering the tournaments (even if they are, there are copious alternatives), or discouraged by having to give ludicrous handicaps, or looked upon as hustlers..... people want to help the good players, people want to watch them and even, YES, even nurture their talents. wow.... nurture talent and not beat it down and cast it out! what an amazing idea. i dont know... i think we are the problem. if you want any semblamce of good pool the way it shouls be played and handled, simply move to asia.
 
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the top players in any area are not barred from entering the tournaments (even if they are, there are copious alternatives), or discouraged by having to give ludicrous handicaps, or looked upon as hustlers.....

Why oh why would there be a perception of pool players being "hustlers"...?
 
Why oh why would there be a perception of pool players being "hustlers"...?

there is actually a good answer to this question..... again, im not sure why we all overlook these very simple answers and solutions, but we do....

we have the perception of hustlers because there ARE hustlers..... but that is a direct result of the fact that these kids get locked out of tournaments and are virtual outcasts if they can play. we force good players to go "undeground." do you think good players would go the hustling route if there was money and encouragement the other way (answer is, we'll never know)? again, in tennis and golf, this isnt the case..... its the exact opposite. there is no big mystery here, it is US.... we are all inept and have caused all our own problems, and we dont know why or how.
 
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there is actually a good answer to this question..... again, im not sure why we all overlook these very simple answers and solutions, but we do....

we have the perception of hustlers because there ARE hustlers..... but that is a direct result of the fact that these kids get locked out of tournaments and are virtual outcasts if they can play. we force good players to go "undeground." do you think good players would go the hustling route if there was money and encouragement the other way (answer is, we'll never know)? again, in tennis and golf, this isnt the case..... its the exact opposite. there is no big mystery here, it is US.... we are all inept and have caused all our own problems, and we dont know why or how.

There were hustlers WAY before handicapped leagues or tourneys.

The "hustle" is revered among a certain subset of our community. Just read most any thread here and eventually someone will find a way to make the point that "if you don't gamble you ain't playing real pool" or something of the sort. Those who don't gamble aren't as good as those who do, and the only way to prove who is best is long-set high-stakes matches.

No one is driving the good players underground. That is precisely where they wanna be...
 
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