Handicapped Tourney Discussion

[Fastolfe]

Fast, I don't see the difference between divisions and handicapping???

There is a difference. There are two situations really: inter-club tournament seasons and local tournaments in a single pool hall.

For the season, players from each club are known and registered in several divisions. For instance, I'm in division 1. Above me, there's the honor division, below me there's divisions 2, 3, and 4. During the season, my team can only play against division 1 teams from other clubs. I don't get to play against honor, 2, 3, or 4 division players. So we evolve in our little sub-group of similarly skilled players, while better players play against each others, weaker players do the same. At the end of the season, if we're ranked in the 3 first spot, we'll play in honor division next year.

The key element here is that we do NOT play against better players by artificially tying their hand behind their back. Likewise, we don't play against weaker players. They don't get to win with 50 points when we need 150, then go around saying they won (which they really didn't). If we want to play better players, we need to work our way up and then we'll have won the privilege to do so next year.

For local tournaments, for example my local poolhall holds weekly (or bi-weekly) 8-ball or 9-ball tournaments. They have 3 divisions with different prizes: division 1 players can win a flat wide-screen TV set, division 2 players a snooker cue, and division 3 players a bottle of scotch. When you come register, YOU choose in which division you want to play: if you want the television, you'd better be good. On the other hand, you may have a better chance of winning in division 2, but the prize is only a crappy cue. It's self-regulatory: good players will try for the better prizes, while lesser players (unless they're deluding themselves) will settle for a lesser prize and a bit of glory. But again, good players and lesser players don't mix, and lesser players don't get to win artificially.

With a handicap system, you pit Joe Blows against good players. The former think they're good because they can win, while the latter can lose even if they shoot lights out. Not to mention, if Joe Blow really sucks, the better player will be bored to death; I've seen that before.

When you separate players in several divisions, there's an element of pride being in a higher division. There's the haves and the have-nots, and the have-nots have work to do before they can even play against the haves.

 

[Chris_Lynch]

Having been one of those players that feels like I should cash all the time I will say this:

Even if a tournament is handicapped it is generally done so with a players average skill level. If the best players in the tournament are playing at or near the top of their game then they "should" cash. There is always the luck factor and the fact that you could be giving a handicap to someone at the top of their game and they might be playing even with you at that point.

I can understand the point of view of the stronger players. You can only handicap a tournament so much. In the long run you should see the stronger players cashing more often. Not really the fault of the handicap system it's just that no system is perfect. The handicap system should give everyone a chance to win.

 

[danquixote]

There is a difference. There are two situations really: inter-club tournament seasons and local tournaments in a single pool hall.

For the season, players from each club are known and registered in several divisions. For instance, I'm in division 1. Above me, there's the honor division, below me there's divisions 2, 3, and 4. During the season, my team can only play against division 1 teams from other clubs. I don't get to play against honor, 2, 3, or 4 division players. So we evolve in our little sub-group of similarly skilled players, while better players play against each others, weaker players do the same. At the end of the season, if we're ranked in the 3 first spot, we'll play in honor division next year.

The key element here is that we do NOT play against better players by artificially tying their hand behind their back. Likewise, we don't play against weaker players. They don't get to win with 50 points when we need 150, then go around saying they won (which they really didn't). If we want to play better players, we need to work our way up and then we'll have won the privilege to do so next year.

For local tournaments, for example my local poolhall holds weekly (or bi-weekly) 8-ball or 9-ball tournaments. They have 3 divisions with different prizes: division 1 players can win a flat wide-screen TV set, division 2 players a snooker cue, and division 3 players a bottle of scotch. When you come register, YOU choose in which division you want to play: if you want the television, you'd better be good. On the other hand, you may have a better chance of winning in division 2, but the prize is only a crappy cue. It's self-regulatory: good players will try for the better prizes, while lesser players (unless they're deluding themselves) will settle for a lesser prize and a bit of glory. But again, good players and lesser players don't mix, and lesser players don't get to win artificially.

With a handicap system, you pit Joe Blows against good players. The former think they're good because they can win, while the latter can lose even if they shoot lights out. Not to mention, if Joe Blow really sucks, the better player will be bored to death; I've seen that before.

When you separate players in several divisions, there's an element of pride being in a higher division. There's the haves and the have-nots, and the have-nots have work to do before they can even play against the haves.

I gotta say this seems like the best possible scenario.....with the caveat that there must be enough players for this to work......I should also mention that I don't play to feed my family.....or pay the rent. I welcome the chance to play an opponent that is more skilled than I. If I find myself in div 4.....and wish to play a div 1 player, I can always challenge him/her to a freindly game after the tourny.

 

[stick8]

O.k.

Handicap tournaments SUCK!! My advice is get some heart. Get up on the table with that good player that has spent time practicing to play good and try as hard as you can. If you don't win, so what..... What did you expect?? If you play once a week and this guy practices everyday do you really expect to win?? Practice up and try again!! I think we should stop punishing better plays. Players that spend time practicing, that play everyday, or stay in tough action. These are the avenues to becoming a better player. Pool is a very tough game. It requires practice, time, and experience to develope. If people aren't willing to make sacrifices to become better than they don't derserve to win.

You have to really think about it from the better players point of view. Here you got this guy who plays everyday, practices all the time, plays in every tournament weekly and on the weekends, and gambles in tough action all the time. He enters a tournament they jack him up to one of the highest ranks they have and even if he plays perfect he still loses because the other guy got a couple good rolls. How do you think he feels when someone of a lower rank gets up there and starts playing good, because they either lied about there rating or just having a good night.

Here is a sernario. You enter a tournament for the 1st time and because the someone knows how you play they put you in as a 10. In this tournament if you are new you start as a 5, but not you because they know how you play. Remember you have taken no money from the pot in this tournament, but you are the highest skill rank there is.. Joe Blow from the pool hall across town comes in, nobody knows him. He is a 5 (Really plays like an 8) So he cleans out the tournament let's say $270 for 1st. He completely ran you over because of the spot he was getting. You walk up to the tournament director and say hey that guy is not a 5. He/She says well I'll watch him and see if he is or not. Next week he comes in again and now since he won it last week he is a 6 (still should be an 8) He gets 2nd, $150. The tournament director debates on moving him up because he didn't win. Let's go ahead and say that the tournament director doesn't know what they are doing and thinks that because he didn't win he still is a 6. He comes back next week and snaps it off again, another $270. Now he moves up to an 7 and then he just never comes back. So you got this guy who came in the same time you did and snapped off $690 and you've done nothing but donated $45 ($15 entry fee) and then when you asked to be moved down the tournament director gets mad at you and says that She can't allow you to steal the tournament as a 9.

So you are punished for people knowing that you play good and for playing good. Handicap tournaments are garbage.

you are intiled to your openion, but i beg to differ i have ran a handacap for 12yr and it works just fine, have players that have played 10-12yr and have advanced up a lot and still play, we have different winners most ever week!!! so if it sucks i have 52 players last sunday, and 33 players this sunday so you come on down and tell them they suck.your out look on beginners is what SUCK , bet you dont try to help them do you??? we i will go out of my way to help beginnerg even if it is running a handcap to give them a shoot!!!! STICK

 

[timseal]

Handicaps are useful for getting people through the door - but unless you have an occasional scratch tournament, then the quality of play isn't going anywhere.

I've played some very good players in handicaps, incuding a few pros, and "won" most of those matches. I don't really like a game like that, I'm denied any satisfaction of winning because it wasn't a proper game.

 

[trustyrusty]

Handicaps are useful for getting people through the door - but unless you have an occasional scratch tournament, then the quality of play isn't going anywhere.

I've played some very good players in handicaps, incuding a few pros, and "won" most of those matches. I don't really like a game like that, I'm denied any satisfaction of winning because it wasn't a proper game.

Agree with the lack of satisfaction you get from winning when getting a spot, though some in this thread think that's all the lesser players are looking for (I can't see how anyone would want to brag about beating someone, say 5 to 8, when the other guy had to go to 9)! REP to you!!

Though the satisfaction of the win may be less, the experience of playing better competition (which may not be available to you otherwise) can be invaluable.

 

[Gatz]

We have a tour here in Ontario called "The 404", it's a handicapped tournament. The Handicapps run from 4-11, meaning that's how many games you race too.

No handicapped tournament is perfect, but this one is pretty solid. Most of the complainers are the high handicap players, they always seem to say something along the lines of "This guy shouldn't be this handicap..." when they lose.

This is a $1000 added event every 2 weeks and probably averages 50 players. The entry differs to your handicap, 4-5=$25, 6-7=$45, 8-9=$65, 10-11=$85.

This tour gets some pretty good players like John Morra, Jason Klatt, Mario Morra etc...

I've posted every 1st place, 2nd place winner thus far from 2007 to present. Their handicaps are beside their names. The high handicap players still win the majority of the time.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=165852

 

[Aaron_S]

I have very little sympathy for good players who complain about handicaps all the time. The minute you lay down your entry fee for a handicapped tournament, you are accepting the fact that no handicapping system is perfect, and that it is a competition which has been designed not to determine the best player, but to give a wide range of players a chance to have a good time and possibly win some money. A good player who views a handicapped tournament as an easy way to pay his Dish Network or cell phone bill each month is completely missing the point.

Handicapped tourneys are a great way to draw larger fields and increase the pot size, and, if the handicaps are close to being right, they force good players to bear down and play well even when matched against players who they would torture in even races. I think this should be viewed as a benefit to the good players and weaker players alike, because they both know they have to perform near their highest level to win. Why on Earth someone who is capable of putting up AccuStats .800's would want to play a match where they could make 3 mistakes per rack and still win is beyond me. There's a word for that, but it's not "competition", it's "stealing".

An "A" player who's playing in a handicapped tourney and feels like he's giving up too much weight due to a perceived handicap issue should simply view it as an opportunity to outrun the nuts. It's not so different from that same "A" player entering the Derby and drawing Souquet in the first round. Sure, he's up against it, but he can either b!tch and whine about it or buckle down and try to pull off an upset.

Aaron