Has 9 ball always...

[gregcantrall]

Re: ‘Ring Game’ rules: We always played any money ball made out of rotation was spotted, but I seem to remember some exception (?). Been too long.
‘Rewatching ‘The Hustler’ movie, just before Paul Newman joined the 5 & 9 ring game at Arthur’s, his eventual heads-up opponent made the nine with a combo, and won that game. Still multiple players then, so likely shouldn’t have happened (?).

In the northwest, uh Seattle/Tacoma, it was one before the 5 and two before the 9. The 5 came back as long as there was one smaller. The 9 needed 2 balls on the table to spot.
Different places had different games. One of the best ring games at The Ram in Tacoma, only allowed 4 players and only paid on the 9. The game started at $1 after work. When a fifth player wanted to play the custom was raise the bet till one was ready to drop out. Common to be $10 on a Friday night.

 

[tomatoshooter]

takes away a good two-way shot. i played it once and found it to be pretty boring myself. i like DCC's way the best. just play 10b with regular 9b rules. maybe add a 'call-the-10' but the bigfoot has used these rules since the beginning and it works fine. good players and not much slop too.

Definitely at the higher levels it's not dumb luck, it's smart luck. You don't have a real shot but you know that if you fire the cue ball in there something can happen. You have to understand the odds, likelihood of getting safe, etc. Demetrius Jelatus discusses this on one of his YouTube videos. He calls it skill equity and luck equity. You have a kick that's low percentage to make and will probably sell out? Hit it hard and you have a chance of making something or rolling safe.

I did feel bad about fluking the 8 and the 9 the other day, turning banks into double banks into the opposite side. That was (very) dumb luck.

 

[hang-the-9]

The only time I've seen nine-ball played with "call the nine" was at the International Challenge of Champions. I recall that Vivian Villareal lost a rack when she pocketed the nine after failing to call it. My best guess is that it was in the late 1990s, but the "call the nine" requirement was soon dropped at that event.

Nine-ball has always been a slop game, and so was ten-ball when the PBT switched to ten-ball in what I believe was 1998. Call shot rules, which ruined ten-ball for this fan and ensured that ten-ball remained a fringe game, came later.

I don't think called shots are an issue in any pool game, I mean 8 ball is called shot for the pros and most leagues. For the higher-level players past banger level the game really feels cheapened when one misses an aimed shot, but it still counts if it goes in elsewhere. I think Grady put it best in one commentary "he lost a bit of dignity on that shot" when someone crapped a ball in.

I do have a small issue with the called safe rule where you can give the ball back on a missed shot, there is still elegance and deliberate action in going for a two-way shot where you attempt a hard shot with a built-in safety. We really should have full control of our actions at the table, including deliberate aiming and position play, they are no less important to control than say holding the cue stick or your hands in proper form, so you are not just waving it around knocking into things and moving the balls all over the place. Playing pool well is a set of deliberate and precise actions, luck may have a place in it, but isn't the goal of the better players to minimize that luck and rely on skilled control? We are not banging things around the table, even C players strive for doing what they want not dealing with what they get.

 

[hang-the-9]

Just found my 1980 Billiard Congress of America rule book.View attachment 657390View attachment 657391View attachment 657392

I started playing pool around 88 I think, maybe 87, and the only 9 ball rules I knew where the ball in hand anywhere, one push out rules, no balls are spotted on fouls even off the break. I have also not seen others play by those rules in this book in person ever, so in less than 10 years from this rulebook the "common" rules look to have changed. My pool experiences have pretty much been on the N.E. area, maybe for those in other areas in the late 80s and early 90s the old school rules were more common.

In a Sands Regency match Buddy Hall was talking about the move for the PBT to "Texas Express" rules and he said he thought it was one of the best moves the pro tour did, he really liked the rules and though it would make the game better. And I dare any of you to go against what Buddy thinks is good for pool LOL

 

[hang-the-9]

I remember in some gambling situations a stipulation was call 9 for some players while it was wild for other guys. Slowed down the cheese riders. This was B player action as a rule, sometimes $1000 sets in the 80’s so wasn’t small nickel & dime games.

I like that handicap, a tournament my son did was even races, but there was the wild 9 and it counted on the break. I had some loses there to weaker players due to that, but impartially, they had some wins playing even against a better player, so the rule ended up being fair to the match played. They had to play me even, I had to deal with them winning on luck every so often, I did not mind that trade off, thought it was more than even towards the better player.

I have played some games where I need to call my shots, but the other player does not, really did not make too much difference in those games from the results. The better players crap in so many less balls than the bangers but they still pocket way more called shot balls than the bangers would random luck shots.

 

[tomatoshooter]

I do have a small issue with the called safe rule where you can give the ball back on a missed shot

I thought that was only if you made a ball but not your called shot. I think that makes sense, if you don't want to stay at the table, make sure you don't sink anything.

 

[sjm]

I don't think called shots are an issue in any pool game, I mean 8 ball is called shot for the pros and most leagues. For the higher-level players past banger level the game really feels cheapened when one misses an aimed shot, but it still counts if it goes in elsewhere. I think Grady put it best in one commentary "he lost a bit of dignity on that shot" when someone crapped a ball in.

I do have a small issue with the called safe rule where you can give the ball back on a missed shot, there is still elegance and deliberate action in going for a two-way shot where you attempt a hard shot with a built-in safety. We really should have full control of our actions at the table, including deliberate aiming and position play, they are no less important to control than say holding the cue stick or your hands in proper form, so you are not just waving it around knocking into things and moving the balls all over the place. Playing pool well is a set of deliberate and precise actions, luck may have a place in it, but isn't the goal of the better players to minimize that luck and rely on skilled control? We are not banging things around the table, even C players strive for doing what they want not dealing with what they get.

You're not wrong. It's a matter of personal preference. You like what you like.

That said, as one who dates back to the straight pool era, I'm of the opinion that call-shot was part of what ultimately made that game inaccessible for many and unsuitable for TV. At straight pool events, the referee announced to the fans what ball had been called on every shot, but unless you were sitting close you couldn't hear it, so you often had to make do without knowing the player's intent. Rotation pool solved most of this, as balls suddenly had to be hit in numerical order, but the pocket, banks, combos and caroms were never called. Still, it beat the hell out of call shot (and in today's call shot, unlike back in the day, the ball is very rarely called, so in eight ball and ten ball, you rarely know a player's intent) rules.

The two hardest games, and arguably the most majestic, in pocket billiards, by a mile, are snooker and one pocket. Neither is played call shot and nobody has ever suggested that they should be. Ten-ball, when adopted by the PBT in 1998, was not call shot either, but Texas Express, so let's not pretend, as some on this forum do, that ten-ball was always call-shot.

For my money, no call shot game should ever replace nine-ball as the primary discipline in pool. Call shot games are just too fan-unfriendly for most. I'll also add that multi-purpose shots (e.g., make the three while trying to carom in the money ball, hit a bank shot in a way that also gives you a chance at the double bank) are among the most majestic shots played on a pool table and I'm not willing to dumb down the game just to appease someone who lost because of one bad roll. Luck is part of every game and every sport, and, as Irving Crane once said, you may not get half the rolls today, but over a pool lifetime you'll get half the rolls.

I have no view on action matches. When players match up, they can play any game they like with any set of rules they like, but for tournament play, I don't like call shot games. That's my preference.

 

[gregcantrall]

I started playing pool around 88 I think, maybe 87, and the only 9 ball rules I knew where the ball in hand anywhere, one push out rules, no balls are spotted on fouls even off the break. I have also not seen others play by those rules in this book in person ever, so in less than 10 years from this rulebook the "common" rules look to have changed. My pool experiences have pretty much been on the N.E. area, maybe for those in other areas in the late 80s and early 90s the old school rules were more common.

In a Sands Regency match Buddy Hall was talking about the move for the PBT to "Texas Express" rules and he said he thought it was one of the best moves the pro tour did, he really liked the rules and though it would make the game better. And I dare any of you to go against what Buddy thinks is good for pool LOL

1982 was the year I started at the 9 ball academy. Every Wednesday night at The White Spot(RIP closed a year ago) in Fife. $5 race to 3 nineball on 5 eight foot bar tables. Drawing from Olympia to Everett creating fields greater than 32. After a Year and a half I got a beer for 7-8.
I don't remember anything but Texas Express in the tournament. I was familiar with Push-Out and a few different ways of naming it. The new Texas Express was debated weekly.
The shot maker wanted Push-Out the safety players wanted Texas Express. The shot makers had neglected the kick game because they always had the option to push to something I can make but he can't. Efren gave huge lessons in '85.

 

[WillieRackam]

Has 9 ball aways been a slop game and if so should the 9 be called ?

It's only a "slop" game if both players are "slop" players ...

There are plenty of games/sports that have some luck involved to go along with [and occasionally against] the skillsets that make the superior players "superior" ...

Let's say T. Woods is heads up against R. McIlroy ... McIlroy hits his drive down the middle and it comes to rest in the green side end of a divot in the middle of the fairway and then Woods pulls his drive left into the trees and it rebounds into the fairway with a perfect lie.

Do you think McIlroy will whine about it [like he's "D. Trump" or whatever] ... ? No, he'll just put his "Titleist" on the short gas with his next shot and then sink the putt ...

Learn to sink your "putts" so you don't work to become a "putz" ...

Or, just play 10 Ball.

Has 9 ball aways been a slop game and if so should the 9 be called ?

 

[Cornerman]

You're not wrong. It's a matter of personal preference. You like what you like.

That said, as one who dates back to the straight pool era, I'm of the opinion that call-shot was part of what ultimately made that game inaccessible for many and unsuitable for TV. At straight pool events, the referee announced to the fans what ball had been called on every shot, but unless you were sitting close you couldn't hear it, so you often had to make do without knowing the player's intent. Rotation pool solved most of this, as balls suddenly had to be hit in numerical order, but the pocket, banks, combos and caroms were never called. Still, it beat the hell out of call shot (and in today's call shot, unlike back in the day, the ball is very rarely called, so in eight ball and ten ball, you rarely know a player's intent) rules.

The two hardest games, and arguably the most majestic, in pocket billiards, by a mile, are snooker and one pocket. Neither is played call shot and nobody has ever suggested that they should be. Ten-ball, when adopted by the PBT in 1998, was not call shot either, but Texas Express, so let's not pretend, as some on this forum do, that ten-ball was always call-shot.

For my money, no call shot game should ever replace nine-ball as the primary discipline in pool. Call shot games are just too fan-unfriendly for most. I'll also add that multi-purpose shots (e.g., make the three while trying to carom in the money ball, hit a bank shot in a way that also gives you a chance at the double bank) are among the most majestic shots played on a pool table and I'm not willing to dumb down the game just to appease someone who lost because of one bad roll. Luck is part of every game and every sport, and, as Irving Crane once said, you may not get half the rolls today, but over a pool lifetime you'll get half the rolls.

I have no view on action matches. when players match up, they can play any game they like with any set of rules they like, but for tournament play, I don't like call shot games. That's my preference.


same for all call shot games.

Great post. Too many players today who have been introduced to 10-ball just in the past ten years have no idea that 10-ball wasn't a call shot game. I played 10-ball in the 80's, and it sure as hell was around long before that.

Also, adding to the most majestic of games, billiards (all of them, not just 3C) have never been call-shot games as well. Imagine if someone suggested to eliminate the obvious two-way shots in 3C?

 

[Cornerman]

Just found my 1980 Billiard Congress of America rule book.View attachment 657390View attachment 657391View attachment 657392

The 1977 BCA 9-ball rules were even shorter with no organization

. But to the original question, slop was part of those rules as well.

 

[gregcantrall]

The 1977 BCA 9-ball rules were even shorter with no organizationView attachment 658444. But to the original question, slop was part of those rules as well.

Wow, two surprises. The rack sequence and loser break.

 

[garczar]

10 ball called pocket, early called ten is ok. No golden break.
Called safety, opponent can't use jump. Fluked safety jumps allowed.

call safe has to most boring form of rotation on the planet.

 

[sjm]

Also, adding to the most majestic of games, billiards (all of them, not just 3C) have never been call-shot games as well. Imagine if someone suggested to eliminate the obvious two-way shots in 3C?

Yes, Freddie, agreed 100%. Call shot in billiards would, similarly, dumb down that game and make it less interesting, both to play and to watch.

 

[sjm]

call safe has to most boring form of rotation on the planet.

It's the worst form of pool ever played. For years, the Super Billiards Expo 10-ball was played with "call safe" and, in those years, I never attended, even though it was played just 90 miles from where I live.

The call safe rules are rarely seen anymore, and that's to pool's great advantage.

 

[SmoothStroke]

In the wonderful game of pool you can screw up the most simple task and reward yourelf. You can play a lock up safe, punish your opponent, and get to screw up again. When you dog it you should pay the consequences, not me.

Player A has the 7,8,9 left. The 8 and 9 are tight to each other but the 8 has 5 pockets available.
This is insurance position 101, as easy as it gets for even a decent player, nevermind pro level.
He dogs position for 5 pockets and gets too close to the 8 for a tough shot.
He now plays a simple lock up safe froze to the 9 and gets ball in hand.
To me there is something wrong with that picture.
I call bullcrap on that.

The 2 way shot in 3 cushion is not the same. If my opponet misses a natural and leaves me tough/safe, I always have a shot. If I miss completely he does not get ball in hand and set up a natural.
I play all games, a lot of 3 cushion, and constantly on both sides of the 2 way shot. You always have a shot, safe doesn't matter. You can play a zep or whatever your imagination can come up with, there is no ball in hand.
The only ball in hand scenario in 3 cushion is a break shot, if you want to call that ball in hand.
We play no luck in 3 cushion and rotation games. In 3 cushion we don't play you can miss the point on the way in
and catch it long on the way out, that's a miss, you get the picture.

 

[sjm]

In the wonderful game of pool you can screw up the most simple task and reward yourelf. You can play a lock up safe, punish your opponent, and get to screw up again. When you dog it you should pay the consequences, not me.

Player A has the 7,8,9 left. The 8 and 9 are tight to each other but the 8 has 5 pockets available.
This is insurance position 101, as easy as it gets for even a decent player, nevermind pro level.
He dogs position for 5 pockets and gets too close to the 8 for a tough shot.
He now plays a simple lock up safe froze to the 9 and gets ball in hand.
To me there is something wrong with that picture.
I call bullcrap on that.

The 2 way shot in 3 cushion is not the same. If my opponet misses a natural and leaves me tough/safe, I always have a shot. If I miss completely he does not get ball in hand and set up a natural.
I play all games, a lot of 3 cushion, and constantly on both sides of the 2 way shot. You always have a shot, safe doesn't matter. You can play a zep or whatever your imagination can come up with, there is no ball in hand.
The only ball in hand scenario in 3 cushion is a break shot, if you want to call that ball in hand.
We play no luck in 3 cushion and rotation games. In 3 cushion we don't play you can miss the point on the way in
and catch it long on the way out, that's a miss, you get the picture.

You must have really hated the old pushout version of nine ball. Back in the days when they played pushout nine ball, you could make the seven and hook yourself on the eight, but you didn't pay full price for your mistake because you could push out. Thankfully, Texas Express put an end to all of that. Now, if you hook yourself, you must kick or jump and are usually in trouble (and it's the same in ten-ball as currently played).

To suggest that having to play safe when poor position play has erased your chance to run out is not a penalty is in error. Sometimes that safety will be easy, sometimes it will be difficult, but on average, it will be of average difficulty. Still, no matter how you slice it, you have played your opponent back into the rack, and if they miss a kick or jump, they are not without blame in failing to win it. Position poorly played comes with stiffer consequences today than back in the day.

The game continues to evolve and no matter what the rules are, there will be times when we bemoan them. Nonetheless, luck is fundamental to all sports. At the BMW Golf Championship this weekend, the tournament was decided by a "roll". On the second to last hole, Patrick Cantlay hit his drive well into the rough, but it landed between two sand traps, and bounced over the second one, miraculously ended up in the fairway, which led to the tournament winning birdie. Cantlay quickly acknowledged his incredible luck in the post-tournament interview. Was what happened fair? Maybe or maybe not, but it was definitely exciting to watch. The ebbs and flows in luck and performance are, more than anything, the things that electrify the onlookers.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Luck makes the game exciting. Just look at the Derby City Classic, 1999 Nine Ball final shot for the championship... Efren Reyes vs Troy Frank. It's on YouTube. That was exciting and real Nine Ball.

 

[Guy Manges]

No it hasn’t. It became one when texas express rules became popular after the color of money. Then when you played in a tournament they would always announce it would be texas express rules. At some point it just become The norm. Nothing says you can’t play call pocket 9 ball lol

On another note In my experience playing this game the only people that slop in balls all the time are bad players. You would see it happen a lot when a couple 3s play in apa. It doesn’t happen often with good players . We don’t hit the ball hard unless we have to and we don’t miss by that much. If I see good players slopping a ball in it’s usually they barely miss a bank and get the extra rail into the opposite pocket.

The best eight ball players i ever saw don't play call shot, don't need to... get an opposing pocket drop sometime hooptie doo... Yes once upon a time nine ball was a call shot game in lots of this country... maybe long ago... old man... Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

One of the last times I played the 9 Ball game , The young man I played said ( Sad ) you don't have to call the 9 Ball... SAD ... I’ve also heard people say you don't have to call the 8 Ball... SAD... Guy