Has anyone ever tried this?

drivermaker said:
Why would you make the assumption that I'd be courteous?? :p :D

I think you're fooling yourself. IMO, on real thin cuts with the OB on the rail, you want to hit RAIL FIRST with inside english softly enough so that it takes without rebounding too quickly. The most important thing to me is hitting the CB as accurately as you can to just miss the OB with the CB spinning. So basically whatever it takes to perform that consistently.

I understand what happens when the CB hits the rail/OB, but thanks for the explanation anyway---you scientific guy, you :p ...what I'm wondering is if my swiping at it during the stroke provides more friction/spin (squirt, too?)than the simpler way of just setting up for the side hit before squeezing the trigger.

Didn't you once say something about "tuck and roll".. is this anything like that?

Thank you for your courteous re-reply, :cool:

Jeff Livingston
 
Analysis Paralysis! Just hit the balls and make them. What happened to "feel" DM? You can use backhand english, forehand english, parralel english but you still have to make the balls. Whatever makes you feel confident with your stroke is what makes the balls imho. Don't shoot the shot, be the shot, hmmmmmmmm.
 
chefjeff said:
I understand what happens when the CB hits the rail/OB, but thanks for the explanation anyway---you scientific guy, you :p ...what I'm wondering is if my swiping at it during the stroke provides more friction/spin (squirt, too?)than the simpler way of just setting up for the side hit before squeezing the trigger.

Didn't you once say something about "tuck and roll".. is this anything like that?

Thank you for your courteous re-reply, :cool:

Jeff Livingston

Very many years ago in the land of pool a side stroke was common to better players. Tuck and roll is another varaition. Enter rocket scientists == hence the term BHE. It's doubtful any of them could use a swiping stroke on the fly so they needed a piviot point. This pivot point enabled them to get a similar action without the side stroke. There you have it, similar but not quite the same.

More friction - doubtful, more spin -doubtful, more squirt - not hardly, less if any. After all that's why it was used in the first place. Old timers, like me knew that years ago.

Rod
 
chefjeff said:
...what I'm wondering is if my swiping at it during the stroke provides more friction/spin (squirt, too?)than the simpler way of just setting up for the side hit before squeezing the trigger.

Didn't you once say something about "tuck and roll".. is this anything like that?

Jeff Livingston


I doubt that it's providing more or less of anything other than accuracy because I don't know how much you're swiping it. I guess the way to find out is get an elephant training ball or a Rempe and see where your chalk mark is when you do it both ways and make a comparison. The main thing is, if you set the shot up the same way and shoot it a dozen times by swiping and a dozen times the other way, which one gives you the highest % of pocketed balls. That's the only factor that matters. Knock dem balls in!

Tuck and roll isn't the same and your hand and wrist work differently in executing the shot than with backhand.
 
Rodd said:
Very many years ago in the land of pool a side stroke was common to better players. Tuck and roll is another varaition. Enter rocket scientists == hence the term BHE. It's doubtful any of them could use a swiping stroke on the fly so they needed a piviot point. This pivot point enabled them to get a similar action without the side stroke. There you have it, similar but not quite the same.

More friction - doubtful, more spin -doubtful, more squirt - not hardly, less if any. After all that's why it was used in the first place. Old timers, like me knew that years ago.

Rod

I figured less squirt, too. And I'm still thinking I'm getting more friction, but like the advice here, I've never really cared too much about it before but just shot the shot. But now I'm curious as to the physics of what I'm doing and keeping better control of it.

And for God's sake, don't tell Drivermaker that I'm still using my 314 Predator to do this. shhhhhhhh

Jeff Livingston
 
drivermaker said:
I doubt that it's providing more or less of anything other than accuracy because I don't know how much you're swiping it. I guess the way to find out is get an elephant training ball or a Rempe and see where your chalk mark is when you do it both ways and make a comparison. The main thing is, if you set the shot up the same way and shoot it a dozen times by swiping and a dozen times the other way, which one gives you the highest % of pocketed balls. That's the only factor that matters. Knock dem balls in!

Tuck and roll isn't the same and your hand and wrist work differently in executing the shot than with backhand.

Care to elaborate on tuck n roll? Are you tucking the grip hand during the stroke so the tip rotates at contact? And if so, why?

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Care to elaborate on tuck n roll? Are you tucking the grip hand during the stroke so the tip rotates at contact? And if so, why?

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston

get buddy hall's clock system video, i believe he explains and shows tuck and roll if i'm not mistaken.

VAP
 
chefjeff said:
Care to elaborate on tuck n roll? Are you tucking the grip hand during the stroke so the tip rotates at contact? And if so, why?

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston


VAP is correct...it's on Buddy Hall's clock system tape. You can also ask Zim or Bob Jewett, they teach this all the time in their classes.

Tuck and roll isn't for everyone. You have to have a damn good stroke to begin with and be able to "feel" things instead of mechanically impose them. If you aren't a "feel" player and can run a lot of balls normally, this will probably hurt more than help.

I've elaborated on this to a great extent on other threads. You can tuck it under or roll it up. Try it yourself with the tip of your cue up to the CB but DON'T STRIKE the CB. Stop just short and observe where the tip ends up when you do it.
 
mnShooter said:
I was working on my english yesterday. Playing with the bridge pivot point. Essentially line up center ball and then pivot on your bridge hand to apply english. I realized something really cool. For slower shots I use a longer bridge ~10" and for faster shots I would use a shorter bridge ~6". I was making almost everything on a 9' Table with pretty tight pockets. I suggest trying it out.

It may have been a successful way of applying BACKHAND english for you,however,generally when I want to hit a faster,more powerful shot, I lengthen my bridge and not shorten it.Also when a want to hit a slow roller or slower shot, I shorten my bridge which in fact reduces power.

Generally speaking you have this bridge power thing backwards, however, if it works for you regarding your pivot point and backhand english delivery,more power to you.
:D RJ
 
drivermaker said:
VAP is correct...it's on Buddy Hall's clock system tape. You can also ask Zim or Bob Jewett, they teach this all the time in their classes.

Tuck and roll isn't for everyone. You have to have a damn good stroke to begin with and be able to "feel" things instead of mechanically impose them. If you aren't a "feel" player and can run a lot of balls normally, this will probably hurt more than help.

I've elaborated on this to a great extent on other threads. You can tuck it under or roll it up. Try it yourself with the tip of your cue up to the CB but DON'T STRIKE the CB. Stop just short and observe where the tip ends up when you do it.

I'll play around with it. If I find Buddy's video, I'll buy it. Tuck is toward the body and roll is turning the hand away from the body...got that part.

Years ago, I had a player show me this at a bar, but he never really knew why to do it, just that it's done sometimes. I figured he was just complicating things unnecessarily, so I basically ignored his advice.

I'm still wondering WHY a player would do this.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Care to elaborate on tuck n roll? Are you tucking the grip hand during the stroke so the tip rotates at contact? And if so, why?

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston

Buddy Hall lines up to cut in a shot with a center ball hit (can be various heights up and down the center of the cue ball such as tops ,middle or bottoms)and does his practice strokes.On the last stroke he either tucks or rolls depending if he wants to apply left or right hand english.

When he applies his english he glances across the cue ball rather than straight through the cue ball as in parralel english.His theory is that it cuts a way down on delflection.

When he tucks, he is swinging the cue towards his body on the final stroke, henceforth a tuck.When he rolls he swings the cue out from his body.Buddy is a very talented, co-ordinated man and his tuck and roll style takes some practice.

An easier way of doing the same thing is with backhand english. In backhand english, you initially do the same thing Buddy does.You line up to cut a ball in center ball(tops,middle or low) with no english.Once you feel you have lined up the cut shot properly, you then shift your backhand either to the left or the right depending if you want inside or outside english.When you are making this shift, it's imperitive that you keep your bridge hand locked and still.Once you've decided on (1/4,1/2,3/4 tip etc) the english you want to apply, you now stroke through that NEW line.Applying english this way will also have you glancing accross the cue ball,simuliar to Buddy's tuck and roll.Applying english in this matter also cuts back on deflection and it adjusts the aiming point for you, rather than you having to guess on how thick or thin to hit the object ball.

I'm finding that in my game I use all three applications of english, depending on the situation.I never set out to do tuck and roll purposley, however, my subconcious will sometimes apply it when it knows I've made the wrong descision as to get the shot where I want it to go.Some people might call this steering.

In my expermentation, I've also found out that(for example) a tip of high right english using parrelel english wont deliver the object ball to the same place as a tip of high right backhand english. While they both apply the high right english, ones a straight through the cue ball shot and the others a glancing accross the cue ball shot.The straight through and glancing acroos the cue ball definitly produces different end results

When I want to apply a ton of check sidings, I find parralel english will get the job done much more effectivley for ME.When I'm in a pressure situation and I want to make sure of the pot(and not have to guess on hitting the object ball thick or thin)I use backhand english, because it does the calculating automatically for me.For me personally, I find that backhand english is much more reliable, for medium to shorter range shots.

I would say to anyone experiment with both as it never hurts to add another weapon in your arsenal. RJ

ps. If you decide to use backhand english, go to these links to find out where your cues pivot point is and read up about pivot points.Your pivot point is your bridge length.

Read here to find out about your cues pivot point:
https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

read here about pivot points:
https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_about_pivotpoints.php

Go here for an explanation of what backhand english is. Scroll down to find that catergory:
http://www.greatpool.com/technique.htm
 
chefjeff said:
I figured less squirt, too. And I'm still thinking I'm getting more friction, but like the advice here, I've never really cared too much about it before but just shot the shot. But now I'm curious as to the physics of what I'm doing and keeping better control of it.

And for God's sake, don't tell Drivermaker that I'm still using my 314 Predator to do this. shhhhhhhh

Jeff Livingston


Too late....somebody opened their big mouth and spilled the beans. Physics isn't going to help you control it. Don't even go there. Why do you always want to pollute your mind with worthless horseshit that's not going to help anything. DOING it and PRACTICING it will give you control.

You're actually fighting an uphill battle trying to use backhand with a Predator. (I ain't a shittin' either) It's too self correcting and you'd be better off with a regular shaft of some kind.
 
one piece of advice ...

One piece of advice:

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line ...

think about it .... lol
 
Snapshot9 said:
One piece of advice:

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line ...

think about it .... lol

ok..........this makes absoulutely NO SENSE whatsoever on this conversation, unless i'm missing something.

in case i am missing something, please explain.

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
ok..........this makes absoulutely NO SENSE whatsoever on this conversation, unless i'm missing something.

in case i am missing something, please explain.

VAP


VAP, I think what he is saying is a side stroke, swiping action, is not the shortest distance. Doesn't matter though, there are hundreds, maybe thousands that use it.

Rod
 
Rodd said:
VAP, I think what he is saying is a side stroke, swiping action, is not the shortest distance. Doesn't matter though, there are hundreds, maybe thousands that use it.

Rod

thats what i got from it that he meant, but like you said, that doesn't mean anything.

VAP
 
recoveryjones said:
Buddy Hall lines up to cut in a shot with a center ball hit (can be various heights up and down the center of the cue ball such as tops ,middle or bottoms)and does his practice strokes.On the last stroke he either tucks or rolls depending if he wants to apply left or right hand english.

When he applies his english he glances across the cue ball rather than straight through the cue ball as in parralel english.His theory is that it cuts a way down on delflection.To my knowledge, there is no 'special' stroke that reduces QB deflection ie squirt.

When he tucks, he is swinging the cue towards his body on the final stroke, henceforth a tuck.When he rolls he swings the cue out from his body.Buddy is a very talented, co-ordinated man and his tuck and roll style takes some practice.

An easier way of doing the same thing is with backhand english. In backhand english, you initially do the same thing Buddy does.You line up to cut a ball in center ball(tops,middle or low) with no english.Once you feel you have lined up the cut shot properly, you then shift your backhand either to the left or the right depending if you want inside or outside english.When you are making this shift, it's imperitive that you keep your bridge hand locked and still.Once you've decided on (1/4,1/2,3/4 tip etc) the english you want to apply, you now stroke through that NEW line.Applying english this way will also have you glancing accross the cue ball,simuliar to Buddy's tuck and roll.Applying english in this matter also cuts back on deflection and it adjusts the aiming point for you, rather than you having to guess on how thick or thin to hit the object ball.

I'm finding that in my game I use all three applications of english, depending on the situation.I never set out to do tuck and roll purposley, however, my subconcious will sometimes apply it when it knows I've made the wrong descision as to get the shot where I want it to go.Some people might call this steering.

In my expermentation, I've also found out that(for example) a tip of high right english using parrelel english wont deliver the object ball to the same place as a tip of high right backhand english. While they both apply the high right english, ones a straight through the cue ball shot and the others a glancing accross the cue ball shot.The straight through and glancing acroos the cue ball definitly produces different end resultsOf course they will be different. The angle of cue approach is different!

When I want to apply a ton of check sidings, I find parralel english will get the job done much more effectivley for ME.When I'm in a pressure situation and I want to make sure of the pot(and not have to guess on hitting the object ball thick or thin)I use backhand english, because it does the calculating automatically for me.For me personally, I find that backhand english is much more reliable, for medium to shorter range shots.

I would say to anyone experiment with both as it never hurts to add another weapon in your arsenal. RJ

ps. If you decide to use backhand english, go to these links to find out where your cues pivot point is and read up about pivot points.Your pivot point is your bridge length.

Read here to find out about your cues pivot point:
https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

read here about pivot points:
https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_about_pivotpoints.php

Go here for an explanation of what backhand english is. Scroll down to find that catergory:
http://www.greatpool.com/technique.htm

BHE works because the angle of approach cancels out the squirt angle at a certain pivot point.

I would hate to get down on the shot worrying about my bridge point being exactly 12.78 inches from the tip in order to make a ball!

Gabber
 
mnShooter said:
I was working on my english yesterday. Playing with the bridge pivot point. Essentially line up center ball and then pivot on your bridge hand to apply english. I realized something really cool. For slower shots I use a longer bridge ~10" and for faster shots I would use a shorter bridge ~6". I was making almost everything on a 9' Table with pretty tight pockets. I suggest trying it out.

I was open-minded enough to give your long bridge/short bridge,slow shot/fast shot back hand english theory a shot and was very pleased to learn for me (and my stroke/cue), that it works.Actually it works great!I only tried it out for five minutes or so (before a tournament) and made a real high percentage of my pots with both fast and slow shots and got some good english.My short bridge for my stroke(and cue) was more like 8" and long bridge 12".I think anyone who trys it will have to experiment to see what works best for them.

I will most definitley explore this theory some more in my next practice section. Thanks for the tip , RJ
 
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