Having a tip with multiple shapes

[James]

I don't think so.

I doubt most people would argue that over a length of time , a cube of chalk is capable of wearing down a peice of leather.

However , 99.9% of your tip shaping coming from a peice of chalk is pretty ludicris.

If that was the case then all my cues would have tips shaped like the tips found on the average house cue as I have only ever used house chalk. And since my tip still has the shape I put on it 6 months or so ago and NOT the 'ol flat as a coffee table shape , I'll have to go with my findings instead.

I'm going to attempt to talk about this pleasantly but I'll stop at whatever point someone wants to argue blindly about it with me. Hopefully we can avoid that.

Your assumptions, in my opinion, are flawed.

You put a shape on your tip a few months ago. Since then, you have presumably hit a lot of balls and used a lot of chalk. Now I hope you'll agree that the impact caused by hitting balls is random and varied in terms of it's impact on the tip. The location, angle and intensity of impact varies with every shot, as well as the rotational placement of the cue in your hands.

However, your tip is not randomly dented and flattened. It maintains close to the original shape. (This is all assuming the tip was reasonably compressed to begin with)

In my eyes, the impact has minimal effect. I think you'd find, however, that if you never used a shaper and just chalked for the life of the tip (something many people do. I believe Scott Lee told me he does this) you'd find that at the end of it's life the tip maintained a shape that is similar to it's original shape.

Now surely you can't say that the impact was evenly distributed and wore the tip down in a nice radius. And you didn't use a tip tool. So what else wore the tip down evenly and round if it wasn't the chalk?

In my understanding, the way you apply chalk will have a large effect as well.

This is not a simple topic, and I have a lot more to say. However I'm not sure anyone is actually interested in discussing it so I think I'll probably leave it alone.

I love you all no matter what

-J

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I don't want to speak for Jude here, but I am not someone that is going to argue this...

If I had to analyze the situation I'd say that Jude made a statement that wasn't immediately apparent, and people's initial reaction was to disagree. When they did so jokingly (read: disrespectfully) Jude responded in kind, may have exaggerated, and the result is that no one learns from, thinks about, or benefits from the situation in any way. The analogy I see in my head is people covering their ears and just repeating what they already knew (or thought they knew) over and over until the "discussion" is over.

It's a shame really.

James, thanks for your support on this subject. I really do appreciate it. In the end, it's fun stuff to think about but it really doesn't matter much. We're all getting worked up over tips which is very silly. Like I said just before, in the end, you wear down the tip and replace it. How it gets there doesn't really matter.

 

[James]

Wow, this thread has taken a funny turn. So, let me get this straight, I have a guy in San Diego backing me against a guy in North Carolina. Just send Crawfish and me the plane tickets to Las Vegas and you guys can back both of us.

- Crawfish, I'll send you the details on how we're going to split it up once I figure out how to get the biggest score.

I mean, regarding the topic, in the end it doesn't matter what you think. Your tip is going to wear down until you have to replace it and then you start over. How it wears down and in what shape doesn't matter to any of us so long as it plays the way we like.

Jude,

I didn't mean to throw more crap into the mix with that comment, it was a joke (Although I'll back you if you like). It was meant to imply that maybe what you are saying is worth thinking about.

A statement that I immediately regret because in reality most people don't like to think critically...

Oh well! I have to head back to the lab anyway.

XOXO

-Stupid Guy in San Diego

 

[James]

James, thanks for your support on this subject. I really do appreciate it. In the end, it's fun stuff to think about but it really doesn't matter much. We're all getting worked up over tips which is very silly. Like I said just before, in the end, you wear down the tip and replace it. How it gets there doesn't really matter.

I'm going to say something completely crazy now that hopefully will piss somebody off...

I think that the vast majority of pool players chalk excessively and only really do it because other people do so they think they need to.

I've played for a few racks straight (yes I use shots besides centerball) without any chalk at all and not miscued. Suck on that!

 

[crawfish]

I think either you were joking in your thread where you said you play ~ even with CUBC, or you have no idea how Jude plays. Or you're mad at your money

I put that out there as a joke, just trying to imply maybe people should consider that Jude could know what he's talking about? Not that being a good player inherently means you understand the complexities in the physics and mechanics of the game, but it's a possibility.

Maybe I'm wrong too, but at least I'm truly analyzing what's being said here, unlike most people who immediately dismiss the idea as foolish without consideration.

So many of the arguments on AZ are just semantic and it's a shame people can't step back and think critically once and a while.

Just sayin'

Let's just say I might be crazy or I play a little bit better than CUBC. I could care less about the complexities of this situation. I feel that your tip will stay groomed as you make it. I was analyzing what has been said. Matters not to me. Interesting, though. My degree is definitely not in Physics nor Chemistry. There are plenty of technical gurus, also, that can't make a fu@#ing ball, either. I do respect that Jude can play, therefore I wasn't referring to him with that statement. I was just stating that knowing "what" to do and doing it are two different things.

By the way, I said I might play "a hair better" than CUBC. And you are right, I have no idea how good Jude plays. (Or maybe I do.) Call me crazy. I do know that I can make a couple of balls, though. You don't think I'd come on here with an open invite to match up if I played like the AZ match we witnessed, do you?

 

[PetToilet]

anyone remember that sign.. it said something like..


DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

 

[RRfireblade]

I'm going to attempt to talk about this pleasantly but I'll stop at whatever point someone wants to argue blindly about it with me. Hopefully we can avoid that.

Your assumptions, in my opinion, are flawed.

You put a shape on your tip a few months ago. Since then, you have presumably hit a lot of balls and used a lot of chalk. Now I hope you'll agree that the impact caused by hitting balls is random and varied in terms of it's impact on the tip. The location, angle and intensity of impact varies with every shot, as well as the rotational placement of the cue in your hands.

However, your tip is not randomly dented and flattened. It maintains close to the original shape. (This is all assuming the tip was reasonably compressed to begin with)

In my eyes, the impact has minimal effect. I think you'd find, however, that if you never used a shaper and just chalked for the life of the tip (something many people do. I believe Scott Lee told me he does this) you'd find that at the end of it's life the tip maintained a shape that is similar to it's original shape.

Now surely you can't say that the impact was evenly distributed and wore the tip down in a nice radius. And you didn't use a tip tool. So what else wore the tip down evenly and round if it wasn't the chalk?

In my understanding, the way you apply chalk will have a large effect as well.

This is not a simple topic, and I have a lot more to say. However I'm not sure anyone is actually interested in discussing it so I think I'll probably leave it alone.

I love you all no matter what

-J

Your flaw there is in thinking that a single hit is going to dent your tip.

Your also discounting the fact that cubes of chalk vary on internal shape by a HUGE amount from nearly flat when new to carved out like the grand canyon (just to pull that back in ) and everwhere in between . . . and . . . usually across all the available chalk supplied.

What I'm saying is my break cue tip needs far more reshaping than my playing cue and I will usually be using the same cube of chalk on both.

You do that math.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I'm going to say something completely crazy now that hopefully will piss somebody off...

I think that the vast majority of pool players chalk excessively and only really do it because other people do so they think they need to.

I've played for a few racks straight (yes I use shots besides centerball) without any chalk at all and not miscued. Suck on that!

Ah, that's a separate subject. We might as well go back to talking about how I'm going to play Crawfish (we'll call it "The Tip Battle") and how I refuse to go pro. Much more fun there.

 

[James]

Let's just say I might be crazy or I play a little bit better than CUBC. I could care less about the complexities of this situation. I feel that your tip will stay groomed as you make it. I was analyzing what has been said. Matters not to me. Interesting, though. My degree is definitely not in Physics nor Chemistry.

By the way, I said I might play "a hair better" than CUBC. And you are right, I have no idea how good Jude plays. Call me crazy. I do know that I can make a couple of balls, though. You don't think I'd come on here with an open invite to match up if I played like the AZ match we witnessed, do you?

I didn't really believe it for a second when you said you played a hair better than CUBC, but I don't think anyone else did either. Sorry to break the news

 

[crawfish]

Wow, this thread has taken a funny turn. So, let me get this straight, I have a guy in San Diego backing me against a guy in North Carolina. Just send Crawfish and me the plane tickets to Las Vegas and you guys can back both of us.

- Crawfish, I'll send you the details on how we're going to split it up once I figure out how to get the biggest score.

I mean, regarding the topic, in the end it doesn't matter what you think. Your tip is going to wear down until you have to replace it and then you start over. How it wears down and in what shape doesn't matter to any of us so long as it plays the way we like.

Jude, I like your style. Rep to you, sir.

 

[crawfish]

My friend plays better than your friend

Can I be right now?

Maybe, just maybe.

 

[James]

Your flaw there is in thinking that a single hit is going to dent your tip.

Your also discounting the fact that cubes of chalk vary on internal shape by a HUGE amount from nearly flat when new to carved out like the grand canyon (just to pull that back in ) and everwhere in between . . . and . . . usually across all the available chalk supplied.

What I'm saying is my break cue tip needs far more reshaping than my playing cue and I will usually be using the same cube of chalk on both.

You do that math.

Your flaw is in thinking that a single hit is not going to dent the tip I don't know shit about pool but I know quite a bit about the issues we're discussing here. I promise you that a single hit does dent the tip. The problem is that we're using arbitrary terminology here to discuss the deformation without any real grasp on scale. What is a dent? 0.0001" ? 0.001" ? 0.01" I have no idea and I'm sure you don't either...

And I'm not discounting the variable chalk geometry... One thing you may not be considering is that your application (pressure, speed, angle etc) of the chalk will vary based on the existing chalk geometry whether it is conscious or not...

Comparing the required shaping of your break cue and playing cue really isn't relevant as they are different materials in different applications... It is interesting to think about though.

 

[DaveK]

Your also discounting the fact that cubes of chalk vary on internal shape by a HUGE amount from nearly flat when new to carved out like the grand canyon (just to pull that back in ) and everwhere in between . . . and . . . usually across all the available chalk supplied.

And this is why I use one piece of chalk until it is too deep, then toss it and "break-in" another. I'm not a fan of that time between grabbing a new 'flat' piece of chalk and the time when it is shaped properly (it's a feel thing). Also, the depth of the chalk-cave is not necessarily related to the curvature of the chalk-cave. I agree that if you grab a handful of chalks from the counter at a pool hall, they will have variing shapes. Again, this is why I and many other folks much prefer to use their own chalk.

So here is a little experiment that anyone here can perform, if they are really interested in the truth about tip shapes and the effect of chalk. Take a new tip and shape it irregularly, perhaps with different curvatures around the circumference. Then take one piece of chalk and chalk away using a random orientation. If chalk does not shape the tip then your original variations in curvature will remain. If chalk does shape the tip then all sides will converge on a uniform curvature. Let me know the results, I'll be at the table hitting a few balls.

Dave

 

[RRfireblade]

Your flaw is in thinking that a single hit is not going to dent the tip I don't know shit about pool but I know quite a bit about the issues we're discussing here. I promise you that a single hit does dent the tip. The problem is that we're using arbitrary terminology here to discuss the deformation without any real grasp on scale. What is a dent? 0.0001" ? 0.001" ? 0.01" I have no idea and I'm sure you don't either...

And I'm not discounting the variable chalk geometry... One thing you may not be considering is that your application (pressure, speed, angle etc) of the chalk will vary based on the existing chalk geometry whether it is conscious or not...

Comparing the required shaping of your break cue and playing cue really isn't relevant as they are different materials in different applications... It is interesting to think about though.

You did actually. You said your tip would be covered in dents if you didn't chalk. You also said you play racks of games without chalking. I guess your tip looks like a golf ball by the end of the day.

As a engineer , you say , I'm giving you a baseline for discussion. Two cues using the same peice of chalk wearing in contrast to the stated assumptions.

Not only that but the cue tip wearing in direct contradictions to the assumptions is hit what 1/10 of the amount of the other ? And . . . has a harder tip installed.

But , sir engineer , I'm open to rebutle based on anything other than pure speculation.

 

[James]

You did actually. You said your tip would be covered in dents if you didn't chalk. You also said you play racks of games without chalking. I guess your tip looks like a golf ball by the end of the day.

As a engineer , you say , I'm giving you a baseline for discussion. Two cues using the same peice of chalk wearing in contrast to the stated assumptions.

Not only that but the cue tip wearing in direct contradictions to the assumptions is hit what 1/10 of the amount of the other ? And . . . has a harder tip installed.

But , sir engineer , I'm open to rebutle based on anything other than pure speculation.

Jay,

respectfully, this is why I don't have arguements like this over the internet. If you go back and re-read what I said:

You put a shape on your tip a few months ago. Since then, you have presumably hit a lot of balls and used a lot of chalk. Now I hope you'll agree that the impact caused by hitting balls is random and varied in terms of it's impact on the tip. The location, angle and intensity of impact varies with every shot, as well as the rotational placement of the cue in your hands.

However, your tip is not randomly dented and flattened. It maintains close to the original shape.

You mis-understood my statement and based your entire rebuttal on that. This is not a knock on you, but on the format in which we're attempting to discuss.

Let's just leave it alone. If we're ever together in person I'm sure we could have an in depth discussion and both learn something along the way.

edit: on a side note, it really doesn't help things progress constructively to throw in comments like "sir engineer". I suppose I should've left that out of my original post. However condescending comments like that aren't going to make anyone want to respond in a manner conducive to productive discussions...(If that's even what you want)

 

[crawfish]

Hey, isn't the tip that leather thingy that hits the white ball first?

 

[James]

Hey, isn't the tip that leather thingy that hits the white ball first?

Wait, I didn't know golf clubs were leather. We are talking about golf right?

*crickets crickets*

 

[Cuebacca]

I'm going to say something completely crazy now that hopefully will piss somebody off...

I think that the vast majority of pool players chalk excessively and only really do it because other people do so they think they need to.

I've played for a few racks straight (yes I use shots besides centerball) without any chalk at all and not miscued. Suck on that!

What kind of tip do you use? I'm going to have to go with... not a hard one.

 

[runscott]

OMFG, we were called failures at life by Jude......

Here's an idea for a new thread: "How would Jude fix this miserable excuse of a thing I call a life?"

Jude, Jude, he's our man, if no one can Jude can.........

It's actually much worse. Here's a photo of the original 'googan' - I watched him as a kid on the Jackie Gleason Show. He hangs out at pool halls and gives advice.

 

[James]

What kind of tip do you use? I'm going to have to go with... not a hard one.

right now i've got a sniper M, sniper MH, everest (whatever's on the OB-1), and an elkmaster. I primarily play with the sniper MH though.