also another thing that i'm wondering is, wouldn't it be more unlikely that this movement can pull the cue offline since it's up & down and not side to side?
head moving up & down
- Thread starter z0nt0n3r
- Start date
IMO...It looks to me like the butt of the cue (grip hand) raises up on backstroke....The more power in the shot....the more it looks to raise up (and a more noticable head raise)....Your head and upper body seems to naturally compensate (raise up) with the cue.
I "suspect" your whole upper body is moving beacuase you are focused on trying to keep your head still....
How to correct....change your grip, stance and/or posture at set up......
Here is some food for thought..watch SVB........SVB starts with chin pretty much on cue.....Watch his stroke and your will see the cue actually drop away from his chin (instead of raise up)....Why?.....I suspect it is in his grip hand...he has a noticable forward press grip.....As he moves the cue away the forward press goes away and the cue drops away from his chin creating separation........(his head and upper body are natrually allowed to remain still)
I am not saying (you) need a grip with a forward press....that is just an example of how grip can effect other things...
I "suspect" your whole upper body is moving beacuase you are focused on trying to keep your head still....
How to correct....change your grip, stance and/or posture at set up......
Here is some food for thought..watch SVB........SVB starts with chin pretty much on cue.....Watch his stroke and your will see the cue actually drop away from his chin (instead of raise up)....Why?.....I suspect it is in his grip hand...he has a noticable forward press grip.....As he moves the cue away the forward press goes away and the cue drops away from his chin creating separation........(his head and upper body are natrually allowed to remain still)
I am not saying (you) need a grip with a forward press....that is just an example of how grip can effect other things...
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i think SVB also raises his head up as he pulls the cue back but i think the difference is that with me as i pull the cue back me head raises but the cue remain in contact with the chin whereas with SVB, he loses contact with the chin as he pulls back the cue.
I highly doubt any player never moves thier head a little at times......You can force a still head over and over 100 times but under pressure on certain shots your body will do "naturally" what it needs to do to compensate.......of course ideally you want no head movement........I am sure there are certain shots where SVB moves his head and also Fedor...Efren, Earl, Segal...go right down the line and you will find some head movement from time to time.......The head movement most likley will come from a change from the normal shot....perhaps a power shot causes it when the stroke gets lenghened out.....many many variables..... but the root cause of the movement will be due to grip, stance and posture....(for that shot)
What I am referring to is most pronounced at 2:16:40 of your video you posted...you do it many other times but it is always going to happen based on your grip and stroke....The cue is not going back level...it is what I refer to as a see saw type stroke.....It is subtle but you can see it in the tip as well on many shots.....If the cue is going up on the back swing.....so must your head (naturally follow)....try and keep your head still and your whole upper body will move to compensate.
Here is an example video of Shanes set up and takeaway....notice the cue drops down on take away...and (For the most part) his head and upper body stays still)
I see multiple ways of fixing this....change your grip so that the stroke on takeaway at least stays level or drops away from the chin......Or if you are comfortable with the see saw stroke (there are players that play like that)....Adjust your posture a bit so your chin starts off the cue instad of on it.
Your choice.......Of course this is just one persons observations from watching your video.....Good Luck!!!
thanks for the observations. when you say change your grip do you mean to place my grip arm in a more vertical position instead of further back? or do you mean to open the back fingers on the backswing to keep the cue level? both of these changes result in a more level stroke.
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Is BRKNRUN correct? Are you trying to keep your head still throughout the entire stroke? I'm seeing you lift up almost before the backstroke begins.
i don't lift up on purpose, it's the see saw cue movement that forces my head/upper body to lift up as i start the backswing.
Thank you. I'm not asking whether you're intentionally trying to lift your body, I'm asking if you're focused on keeping your head down.
While it's true that vertical movement may have little effect on a stroke, instead of maintaining a fixed head position, I would encourage you to consciously move along the line of the cue stick's direction. If I were coaching you, we would work on this first before addressing new positions or immobility.
are you suggesting he move forward and backward?
i would say yes but not consciously. it's a habit that i've developed from my early playing days, i learnt to keep my head down until the stroke is finished on the majority of shots.
No, there are professional players who move their bodies during their forward strokes, remaining stationary—aside from their stroke arm, of course—only for softer shots. When they move with their typical stronger strokes, for instance, their movement is forward and slightly downward, but never backward.
I strongly suggest that you intentionally move your body in response to the cue, for now.
Thank you
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Interesting out of the box approach. Most would disagree, but I guess you've seen this work very well to 'strongly suggest' it.
As you know, executing pool strokes can require subtle and gentle movements, often involving only the arm or part of the stroke arm. However, there is no stick-and-ball sport where a player moves in isolation to deliver a ball to a target. Recently, I played and observed a professional friend for six hours. I noticed that he engaged more than just his arm on nearly every stroke, adapting his movements to apply English and other techniques as needed. We also discussed what he felt was the necessity to move with a student.
Moving the stroke arm in isolation (without accompanying body movement) is ineffective for most pool strokes.
In stick-and-ball sports, there is no instance where a player sends a ball toward a target over a significant distance using only one part of their body while keeping the rest rigidly still. So while it is possible in pool and billiards to make small movements with the stroke arm to score points, players often hold their bodies too firmly for many shots. For example, imagine trying to execute a powerful break shot using just the stroke arm while keeping the head, trunk, legs, and feet completely motionless. It stands to reason that between an open break and a very gentle stroke, some body movement is essential.
I’m not sure if my informal experiment is of interest, but Janine and I often drink canned seltzer, and I’ve taken the opportunity to toss the cans into a recycling bin and have experimented with underhanded tossing motions while standing upright or crouched in a pool stance. I’ve found that it’s easy, almost instinctive, to hit the recycling bin when I allow my body to move along with my hand and arm toward the target. In contrast, it’s quite difficult to achieve the same accuracy using only the stroke arm. The empty cans are very lightweight and do not require much effort to hit their target. The ideal tossing motion mainly involves the tossing arm, with some movement from the rest of the body in a smooth, flowing motion.
Thanks for the answer, but I respectfully disagree - in fact I believe the opposite: body movement is only maybe useful for the most powerful shots (breaks) - body movement for other shots is a drawback. For the vast majority of shots, the pendulum stroke (only the arm moves) is best for accuracy and consistency. I don't teach any more, but I'd never tell a student to purposely move their body for normal shots - in fact, I'd tell them to keep it as still as possible.
pj
chgo
There are times when a head is moving up and down is good thing. 
Thank you for what you wrote. I appreciate it.