Help needed: Frozen balls!!

deep

deep

OFF THE CHAIN
Silver Member
This is probably a stupid question but i've searched and cant find the answer to it!

I was playing 9 ball and this situation arose:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/preset/9ball.html

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Whats the rule for when the cb and object are frozen like the cb and 3 are?? Do you have to shot away from the object ball like in snooker and if so would this shot have been legal??

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i can't belive i've been playing 9-ball for years and have never asked this before!!
 
I think that if the cue ball does anything other than what it would do if they were seperated a little, then it's a push. I don't know the technical ruling, but someone will.

Frozen ball thread by Colin Colenso
 
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when the balls are frozen together you can shoot a normal stroke right through the balls but if they are not frozen but like a tip apart or so then you have to elevate your cue at a 90 degree angle and stroke downwards through the ball so you don't hit the cueball twice which is called a push shot, although you don't normally have to stroke at a 90 degree angle you can shoot at an angle like so just hitting he very edge. but other then that your cue has to be at a degree. A second opinion might be needed though, but this is the information i have gotten over the years of playing and watching pool.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html


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Thanks for the link Hal, dont know how i missed that!

So from what i've read today if cb and object ball are frozen then you still need to move the object ball and its a foul to shoot away, is that correct?
 
> Every tournament plays it differently. It comes up just when you least expect it,so you need to ask the TD every single time before play starts. Under most sets of rules,a single continuous stroke through a frozen ball is legal,provided the cue ball doesn't "scream" downtable like it was chasing the one. In these cases,the cue ball follows the cue ball downtable,but a little backspin on the shot slows the speed of the cue ball down like this.

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Ideally,the shot can be made using just a tad of right or left without throwing the 8 out of the pocket,and the backspin stops the cue ball at A or B. An example of a "screamer" looks like this.

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> These are usually shot by people that don't know any better. In this case,the cue ball is very close,but not exactly frozen,a close inspection by you is mandatory here,so you don't get beat on a shot that was in fact a foul. Unscrupulous and uneducated players land in a spot like this,not knowing or ignoring the rules,and shoots straight ahead. Because the cueball is so close to the one,it naturally stops dead for a split second,and the cue tip is still coming forward,and commits the foul,resulting in a shot that looks like they shot it with maximum follow,and almost catches the object ball on it's way to the pocket. The rule back in the PBTA days was if the cue ball and object ball were within the width of a chalk cube,but not frozen,if the cue ball goes forward more than 1/2 the width of a ball,it is a ball in hand foul. In 99% of all cases that are indeed a foul,the SOUND of a double hit is what gives it away. Tommy D.
 
yes you have to make the objectball move if they are frozen, and like i said you can hit the ball at an angle just by knicking the edge of the objectball if you don't want to have you cue jacked up in the air, as this is the only way to have a normal stroke, other then this you have to shoot a 90 degree angle so you don't foul the cueball.
 
TheConArtist said:
when the balls are frozen together you can shoot a normal stroke right through the balls
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i don't think so. you have to shoot(any of the colored lines other than the yellow) away from the line of the two frozen balls(the yellow line).

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It isn't spelled out in the rules, but if the object ball and cue ball are frozen, then you may shoot straight through the cue ball. The only place I found this mentioned was in the BCA Rule Book on throwing a ball as a legal shot. This is when the cue ball was frozen to the object ball and you wanted to pocket that object ball. It said nothing about angles or shooting away, but it did show a diagram of it shooting straight through at the object ball with side English.

Here is the only rules I found when searching the BCA and APA rule books that had the word frozen in it, except when describing racking the balls.


BCA General Rules of Pocket Billiards

3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball’s first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:
(a) A ball being pocketed, or;
(b) The cue ball contacting a cushion, or;
(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;
(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.


APA Rule
THESE ARE THE ONLY FOULS RESULTING IN
BALL-IN-HAND:
d. The object ball is frozen to a rail and the player is
contemplating playing a "safety." In order for the
"frozen ball" rule to be in effect, the opponent
must declare the ball frozen and the player should
verify. Once it is agreed the ball is frozen the
player must drive the object ball to another rail (of
course, it could hit another ball, which in turn hits
a rail) or drive the cue ball to a rail after it touches
the object ball. If the latter method of safety is
chosen the player should be sure to obviously
strike the object ball first. If the cue ball strikes
the rail first or appears to hit both the rail and ball
simultaneously, it is a foul unless either the cue
ball or object ball went to some other rail.
 
Donovan said:
It isn't spelled out in the rules, but if the object ball and cue ball are frozen, then you may shoot straight through the cue ball. The only place I found this mentioned was in the BCA Rule Book on throwing a ball as a legal shot. This is when the cue ball was frozen to the object ball and you wanted to pocket that object ball. It said nothing about angles or shooting away, but it did show a diagram of it shooting straight through at the object ball with side English.

Here is the only rules I found when searching the BCA and APA rule books that had the word frozen in it, except when describing racking the balls.


BCA General Rules of Pocket Billiards

3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball’s first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:
(a) A ball being pocketed, or;
(b) The cue ball contacting a cushion, or;
(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;
(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.


APA Rule
THESE ARE THE ONLY FOULS RESULTING IN
BALL-IN-HAND:
d. The object ball is frozen to a rail and the player is
contemplating playing a "safety." In order for the
"frozen ball" rule to be in effect, the opponent
must declare the ball frozen and the player should
verify. Once it is agreed the ball is frozen the
player must drive the object ball to another rail (of
course, it could hit another ball, which in turn hits
a rail) or drive the cue ball to a rail after it touches
the object ball. If the latter method of safety is
chosen the player should be sure to obviously
strike the object ball first. If the cue ball strikes
the rail first or appears to hit both the rail and ball
simultaneously, it is a foul unless either the cue
ball or object ball went to some other rail.
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I thought so, and this was explained by Allen Hopkins on a tip of the day so i thought i was right.
 
I knew you were right, but I wanted to see if I could prove it...Kudos Brother. Love that Avatar. He's one of my favorite players!
 
bruin70 said:
i don't think so. you have to shoot(any of the colored lines other than the yellow) away from the line of the two frozen balls(the yellow line).

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Any of the colored lines is OK, including the yellow. And it's just fine for the cueball to go screaming down the table chasing the object ball.

If they were not frozen then these shots would be illegal double hits (not push shots).

As a practical matter, you can see just by the responses to your question there is confusion on this issue. Sometimes that confusion extends to tournament directors for smaller events. What I do whether I'm gambling or playing in a tournament and I'm not sure whether my opponent knows the rules is announce to my opponent they are frozen (have to do this anyway) and add "so I may stroke right through," putting my stick along the yellow line. If my opponent just nods, then I'm good to go. If he looks confused or adds "as long as you're jacked up!" then we need to have a conversation.
... a conversation *before* the shot...always better before the shot.

mike page
fargo
 
Donovan said:
I knew you were right, but I wanted to see if I could prove it...Kudos Brother. Love that Avatar. He's one of my favorite players!
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Bout time i was right on something :D I have another picture that i need resized for me but its not Niels i will send it to you and you can tell me what you think of it hehe.
 
What is really interesting about all of this is that now, this shot is considered a legal shot, when it used to be illegal to shoot this push shot. Keep in mind everything is frozen here.

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Funny how everything continues to come around.
 
Donovan said:
What is really interesting about all of this is that now, this shot is considered a legal shot, when it used to be illegal to shoot this push shot. Keep in mind everything is frozen here.

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Funny how everything continues to come around.
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3-ball is frozen to the cushion and you roll up the cueball to touch it ? That's a foul.
 
mjantti said:
3-ball is frozen to the cushion and you roll up the cueball to touch it ? That's a foul.
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I said: Keep in mind everything is frozen here.

Cue ball is frozen to the object ball and the object ball is frozen to the cushion. A push shot with right spin straight through the cue ball in one smooth motion makes the three ball. This is now a legal shot with the rules as they stand. The cue can't stay glued to the cue ball for any kind of length of time, but it doesn't have to, to make this shot.
 
Donovan said:
I said: Keep in mind everything is frozen here.

Cue ball is frozen to the object ball and the object ball is frozen to the cushion. A push shot with right spin straight through the cue ball in one smooth motion makes the three ball. This is now a legal shot with the rules as they stand. The cue can't stay glued to the cue ball for any kind of length of time, but it doesn't have to, to make this shot.
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I thought the arrow was the path for the cueball. Now I get it.

But anyway, "push shot" is illegal and thus that shot is a foul.

EDIT: here's the rule:

3.24 PUSH SHOT FOULS

It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.)
 
mjantti said:
I thought the arrow was the path for the cueball. Now I get it.

But anyway, "push shot" is illegal and thus that shot is a foul.

EDIT: here's the rule:

3.24 PUSH SHOT FOULS

It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.)
Click to expand...


AH! But that rule does not apply here due to the fact that they are frozen allowing you to shoot through the cue ball. Plus, it happens so fast that the momentary time doesn't really take place. I mean unless the person doen not know how to shoot it properly. Then it would be a ref's decission.

I would bet money that this is now legal. :D
 
Donovan said:
AH! But that rule does not apply here due to the fact that they are frozen allowing you to shoot through the cue ball. Plus, it happens so fast that the momentary time doesn't really take place. I mean unless the person doen not know how to shoot it properly. Then it would be a ref's decission.

I would bet money that this is now legal. :D
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Hmm, I'd still say it's illegal. You're shooting at directly to a frozen ball which is frozen to another object. For instance, you are not allowed to shoot this directly.

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The arrow points the direction of the shot and it's a foul if you'd shoot this one as diagrammed.
 
mikepage said:
Any of the colored lines is OK, including the yellow. And it's just fine for the cueball to go screaming down the table chasing the object ball.

If they were not frozen then these shots would be illegal double hits (not push shots).

As a practical matter, you can see just by the responses to your question there is confusion on this issue. Sometimes that confusion extends to tournament directors for smaller events. What I do whether I'm gambling or playing in a tournament and I'm not sure whether my opponent knows the rules is announce to my opponent they are frozen (have to do this anyway) and add "so I may stroke right through," putting my stick along the yellow line. If my opponent just nods, then I'm good to go. If he looks confused or adds "as long as you're jacked up!" then we need to have a conversation.
... a conversation *before* the shot...always better before the shot.

mike page
fargo
Click to expand...


then,,,

but isn't there something along the line that if the two balls are frozen, and you want to shoot through the yellow line, the cue tip cannot go beyond a certain point? like maybe the length of the cb.
 
bruin70 said:
then,,,

but isn't there something along the line that if the two balls are frozen, and you want to shoot through the yellow line, the cue tip cannot go beyond a certain point? like maybe the length of the cb.
Click to expand...

I think what you're remembering is the guideline for referees in situations when the balls are close but not frozen. A double hit is illegal, and the easiest way to judge a double hit is by the action of the cueball. The guideline is something to the effect that if the cueball goes forward more then a half a ball or a chalk width, then it must have been a double hit foul.

None of that applies here because the balls are frozen.

mike page
fargo
 
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