Help needed re/ rules when Black left only

C

call shot

Call Shot
Hi folks I would appreciate your help on a couple issues:
1) if a player pots the last pink and is up by 9 does he have to sink the black ball? I know when blcak is only ball left apparently first score or foul ends frame. However, if the black is left on table can the shooting player declare victory if he is only 9 up. What if he shot and scratched? Is he required to try to make the ball and risk a foul or not?

2) I am tryiong to understsand this rule:End of Frame, Game or Match

(a) When Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the first score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
(i) the scores are then equal; and
(ii) aggregate scores are not relevant.
(b) When both conditions in (a) above apply:
(i) the Black is spotted;
(ii) the players draw lots for choice of playing next;
(iii) the next player plays from in-hand; and
(iv) the next score or foul ends the frame.


(c) When aggregate scores determine the winner of a game or match, and the aggregate scores are equal at the end of the last frame, the players in that frame shall follow the procedure for a re-spotted Black set out in (b) above.
What section is the reference?And if the shooter was say 8 up and scrtached on the black does that end it or does that leave him 1 up and forces ther incoming player rto shoot. I don't follow the zero zero tie. Pardon my apparent stupidity but I am tryin to understand this game. THANKS IN ADVANCE folks for your help.
 
You are making this way more complicated than it is. In fact, if there is a score differential of GREATER THAN seven after the pink is potted legally (potting pink and fouling on the same stroke requires re-spotting) and only black remains, then the frame is OVER. It does not matter who pots the pink, the previous sentence still applies. In reality, what this means is that "officially", there is NEVER a 147 scored because "technically", the frame is over with the potting of the final pink at a break of 140. The final pot of black is only a courtesy and a formality for the record books.

Now, with that said, if YOU are in a frame, and then you pot the pink, and that puts you more than seven points ahead, DO NOT SHOOT AT THE BLACK--just walk away and shake your opponent's hand because the frame is over. If you do shoot at black, and you scratch, or you miss black completely or otherwise foul somehow, you have opened a huge can of worms for yourself because your opponent will not believe the sentence that I wrote above even if you show it to him in writing in the rule book. Instead, he will say something like, "Since you decided to play on, that means the frame is not over." It is not an argument that I would want to get into.

As for the mumbo-jumbo about aggregate scores--that will only apply for instance, if you have a bet "per point" such as "a dollar a point". In that case, you will have to play out until every ball is legally off the table no matter how big the score differential, then figure out your good or bad fortune. If you decide to throw in the towel while there are still balls on the table, then your opponent gets credit as if he potted every one of those balls (and he gets credited EIGHT points for each red still left because it is assumed that he would have taken a black with each of the reds) so you are better off to play it out and pot as many as you can yourself to at least reduce your debt load.

Aggregate scores would also apply in certain tournaments (I have never been in one like this myself) where they would keep track of all points scored over the whole match (or "game" in the British vernacular). You can kind of compare this to golf--normal snooker is like "match play" golf (i.e., see who "wins" more holes, no matter the difference in strokes, to win the match just like who wins more frames to win the "game"), and aggregate score would be like stroke play golf where every stroke is included over the course of the entire tournament such as in The Masters golf tournament. Aggregate scoring on a snooker table is not the norm where I come from.
 
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re/rules

Okay thanks very much. If I could beg your indulgence just abit longer? Suppose the last black is the game ball and say I am up six. I know the first score or foul ends frame. If I shot the black and scratched I take it I lose by one. If however, I am up 7 and shoot and scratch, I take it then the ball is placed and we draw lots or lag or flip for the next shot? aftret that if ball is not sunk from its spot then ball is in play from anywhere correct? I really do appreciate your help and patience.
 
I think that you are correct, but I am a little confused by your explanation so I will give you my interpretation:

If you are up by six with only black left, and you foul on black, you lose the frame, end of story. You don't really "lose by one point" unless again, you are playing by aggregate scoring for, say, a dollar a point, then, yes, you owe the guy a wallet busting one dollar, I guess. Maybe some people play that the black has to be legally potted under aggregate so maybe black would get re-spotted and maybe you owe him eight dollars if he sinks it or he owes you six if you sink it, I don't know. That would really fall into the realm of "house" rules, not the "official" rules. For normal snooker under IBSF or WPBSA rules, you simply lost that frame, doesn't matter whether by one point or a hundred. And also, to be clear, according to the official rules regarding aggregate scoring, the black DOES NOT need to be legally potted to end the frame. "House" rules may be different.

Next, if you are up by EXACTLY seven with only black left, then you commit a foul of any kind, it is seven points to your opponent so that the game is now tied. At this point, the actual score of the game is completely irrelevant and a very common etiquette is to simply set the scoreboard back to "zero" while awaiting the final outcome of the frame. You are correct that next player's shot is determined arbitrarily, usually by a coin flip in my own experience. Also note that the next shot will be taken with the black re-spotted and the white ball in hand from within the confines of the "D" as in following a scratch. The cue ball is NOT played from wherever it ended up after the previous shot.

I am not certain what you mean by "after that if ball is not sunk from its spot then ball is in play from anywhere"......so to clarify, whoever had won the coin flip decides that he will either take the shot himself or pass the shot to his opponent. (Obviously, it is foolhardy to attempt to sink the black off its spot with the white inside the "D" so this first shot is almost always strictly a safety shot so a good safety player will take the shot himself while a poor safety player will pass the shot.) From there, play simply continues to the final conclusion of the frame. Again, the first potted black or foul ends the frame. It may also be worth noting--if someone pots the black and also scratches on the same shot, the game is OVER, no re-spot. It is simply defined as a foul, same as if black is missed completely or if you brush the black with your elbow, or if you knock one of the balls off the table or any other foul that you might think of.

I tend to be a bit long winded, but I hope that helps.

As for the aggregate scoring, if you are playing (or more importantly, betting) that way, then you had better be careful and know your opponent well and understand each other's interpretation of the rules because things can get a bit dicey. For instance, if you get into a frame at a dollar a point and your opponent takes the opening breakoff, then the bartender says, "Your wife just called; she's been in a crash and needs you." Then your opponent can say, "Okay, just pay me my $147 and you can go." That is the rules.

I don't like aggregate scoring; too much gray area.
 
........ then the bartender says, "Your wife just called; she's been in a crash and needs you."

IMPOSSIBLE IN THE UK !

Bartenders know better than to interupt a game, doing so means instant dismissal. In some places a night in the stocks. (Wales usually)

Any club member who gives her indoors the real number of the snooker hall is liable to the same punishment.
 
TheThaiger said:
Is that true?
Click to expand...
Here is what the official rule says:
4. End of Frame, Game or Match
(a) When only the Black is left, the first score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
(i) the scores are then equal, and
(ii) aggregate scores are not relevant.
...
​
That means, quite obviously, that if the black is the only object ball on the table, and there is a score or foul, the game is over, even if the fouler would not need snookers to win.

Similarly, this means that if you get down to black and the lead is six or fewer points, the players are effectively tied. If you foul, you lose. If you pot the black, you win.
 
It's worth noting that, it's not an 8 ball type deal where you lose the game automatically, but rather the game is ended and score determines the winner. What I mean to say is that, if you're ahead by 8 and foul on the black, the game ends and you win by 1 point. You don't lose even though you lead by 1 point.
 
Cameron Smith said:
It's worth noting that, it's not an 8 ball type deal where you lose the game automatically, but rather the game is ended and score determines the winner. What I mean to say is that, if you're ahead by 8 and foul on the black, the game ends and you win by 1 point. You don't lose even though you lead by 1 point.
Click to expand...
Another wrinkle is that if you are in such a situation and about to shoot at black, you can simply claim the win. You may want to try for the pot if you have a chance for a high break.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Another wrinkle is that if you are in such a situation and about to shoot at black, you can simply claim the win. You may want to try for the pot if you have a chance for a high break.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I'll typically leave the black unless I'm on a break that's between 43-49 or 93-99 (generally don't have to worry about total clearances haha).
 
Cameron Smith said:
It's worth noting that, it's not an 8 ball type deal where you lose the game automatically, but rather the game is ended and score determines the winner. What I mean to say is that, if you're ahead by 8 and foul on the black, the game ends and you win by 1 point. You don't lose even though you lead by 1 point.
Click to expand...

Perfectly stated.

I think the reason that this rule is so often misunderstood by we rank amateurs is that we generally learn the rules of the game by watching the professional game, not by sticking our nose in the rule book. When is the last time you saw a professional match go down to the final black and one of the players fouls? I don't think I ever have. They won't miss that fine cut by a quarter inch like I can, and they can certainly track the path of their cue ball so that it rarely falls in a pocket by accident, let alone on the final black.
 
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