[HELP] Northern Rubber rails Cue Ball hops/jumps off the rail. WHY. [HELP]

Hustlin-Felice said:
Because Dynamic Billiards used to use Artemis rail in Dynamic II table, and everything was OK. But then they changed Artemis to Northern Rubber rails, which are made in England and most likely use in snooker I assume.
Click to expand...

Dynamic never used artemis rubber. They are used some russian rubber on all tables, olympic I and dynamic II
 
peter_gunn said:
Dynamic never used artemis rubber. They are used some russian rubber on all tables, olympic I and dynamic II
Click to expand...

so way they change something what works good, for nothern rubber?

Because I don't think so all of them play like mine, specially that this is official European tournament table so the quality has to be hight. And this is not normal for any table to throw balls after hiting second or even third time the rail:

1zxxlc9.jpg
 
well you should have got the official table for the US. Just picking, their warranty service will show what kind of table company they are.
 
I am sorry, I made a joke at a bad time. I know how upset you are and I hope warranty fixes it. The table looks really good.
 
Played in a pool room in jersey a while back. Balls would get airborne on all banks. The table mech had not tightened down the rails right. The back of the rail was higher that the front....how, I dont know. The owner had him re install the rails properly....problem solved. Have the mech come back and re set the rails....at no chsrge! If that doesnt work, have the company come out and check the table. If no change, get a new table under warranty....and a new table mech!...lol. If you're anywhere around MD,DC,VA....get John Burns ( scruffy1 on AZ )...410-935-3617. He is the best.
 
Gunn_Slinger said:
Played in a pool room in jersey a while back. Balls would get airborne on all banks. The table mech had not tightened down the rails right. The back of the rail was higher that the front....how, I dont know. The owner had him re install the rails properly....problem solved. Have the mech come back and re set the rails....at no chsrge! If that doesnt work, have the company come out and check the table. If no change, get a new table under warranty....and a new table mech!...lol. If you're anywhere around MD,DC,VA....get John Burns ( scruffy1 on AZ )...410-935-3617. He is the best.
Click to expand...

Unless John has started working in Europe...the OP may be a little out of his work zone;)
 
Hi Guys

Sorry that I writing so late but I had some issues with my broadband.

I decieded to make a proper test:

The room where pool table is I left for 5 days (and nights) for good airing and dehumidification. I kept eye on it for all of this time (120h) still till now.
Humidity dropped from level of 60% to 38 - 40 %. And it is still at the level of 40% when I writing this post.

I thought It could be humidity BUT now I think I was wrong.

Because with 40% humidity and temperature 20,5 - 21 dgr C it is just perfect condition for pool table.

But the results were still the same, ball were throw to the air after hitting the rail.

So I decieded to measure Eeeeeverything, and this is where it took me:

Using 57,2mm balls, rail supposted to be at the 63,5%-64,5% according to WPA. So nose of the rail should be at 36,3 - 37mm.

But in my table in most places it is 35 mm, and only in one is just 36mm (but even there balls are throw to the air).

I also spotted one intresting thing:

When you hitting the rail with top spin (follow), after hit should stay on the table and change to backspin.
[What very clearly Mika Immonnen showing in "Mastering Pool"]
But on my table, when you hitting rail with topspin you increasing chances alot for ball to be throw to the air. Which seems to look like the ball trying to climb the rail... - Or maybe I'm wrong with it. I don't know

But I uploading some pictures it measurement, result and albo three short new movies with hitting the rail after 5 days of good airing and dehumidification

Cue Ball Next to the rail:
r90n.jpg


Height of the rail nose:
dcxm.jpg


Height of the rail nose in all of the areas:
5pvd.jpg


ns0d.JPG


2up7k1i.jpg



Movie 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwMqGtWui3Y

Movie 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMmOMDM1YfM

Movie 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBbf7ImQT5A
 
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As I already told you, the cushion nose height is not the problem...even at 62.5% of the ball height. The problem is in the sub-rail design and how it determines the back/front of the cushions. Everyone always assumes the nose height is always the problem, but the table and cushion manufacturers never take in to consideration as to how much the backend height, sub-rail thickness effects just exactly how that nose height is going to be reacting when they are mounted to a set of rails...of all different thicknesses, depending on who manufactured them.;)

Glen
 
Let me be clear

The rail height isn't the problem. The angle of the cushions is the problem. The tip of the cushions may be the right height, but they are angled slightly downward. Your measurements don't matter. Stop with the pictures and videos. You MUST CONTACT the manufacturer of the table and have them come look at their product. Its under warranty. Maybe the rails were installed improperly, etc. the only thing to do is get on the phone and get someone to come look at your table.

Good luck
 
realkingcobra said:
As I already told you, the cushion nose height is not the problem...even at 62.5% of the ball height. The problem is in the sub-rail design and how it determines the back/front of the cushions. Everyone always assumes the nose height is always the problem, but the table and cushion manufacturers never take in to consideration as to how much the backend height, sub-rail thickness effects just exactly how that nose height is going to be reacting when they are mounted to a set of rails...of all different thicknesses, depending on who manufactured them.;)

Glen
Click to expand...


What is a sub-rail ? How to fix it ?


I contacted with producer, but I would like to know where is the problem and how to fix it ?
 
Hustlin-Felice said:
What is a sub-rail ? How to fix it ?


I contacted with producer, but I would like to know where is the problem and how to fix it ?
Click to expand...
***Disclaimer: I am not a table mechanic, just a hobbyist and what follows is my opinions only.***

The subrail is the angled portion of the wood the rubber cushion is installed (glued/adhered) on to. If in fact the subrail design (angle degree, elevation/height and/or thickness) are incorrect, this is where your issues originate.

There can be a variety/many of incorrect subrail/cushion degree of angle, elevation/height and subrail thickness that could all have the correct nose height. The nose height is only one portion of the formula for good rebound characteristics.

In your picture "looking down the rail", imagine that nose hight stays exactly the same, but the rubber cushion is twisted clockwise or counterclockwise, this is where the ball rebound characteristics will change with improper subrail design or possibly incorrect rail installation.

The rubber cushions could have possibly been installed upside down as well from the factory, doubtful but is in the realm of possibility. Almost all of these mentioned issues are out of the consumers reach to correct themselves unless you have experience working on pool tables and the necessary carpentry tooling to do so. This is why people are guiding you to seek help from first the seller, and if not resolvable from them go to the manufacturer of the table for a warranty claim & repair. Sadly at this point you are at the mercy of one of these groups of people to get your table corrected.

If in the end, you get stuck with a table that plays such as yours without any help or correction from the seller or manufacturer. You could try to shim the rails up by sandwiching some hard flat material between the rail and table slate. Using a material the thickness you wish to elevate the rails. This will help reduce/stop the ball bouncing, but if the cushions are not in the correct angle to start with, you may have additional undesirable rebound characteristics going this route. This is not a correct fix to the issue, just one that will help reduce the ball hopping, and as mentioned introduce possibly even far worse rebound issues. Such as short/long bank angles, balls pinching (balls wedging between the cushion and slate) upon rail impact and killing rebound speed & additional cloth wear on the slate creating a channel along the rails.

I imagine the frustration and disappointment you must feel is high, I feel your pain. Call the seller and start there, be nice, but be firm and let them know how disappointed you are and that you will not stop until the issues are resolved, or you would like a replacement or a refund if not correctable (good luck). It's a shame you have to deal with this, buying a new table should not be like this and is a dream smasher.

Dopc.

EDIT:
Below is a couple pictures of the subrail without the rubber cushion so you have a better understanding of what the subrail looks like under the cushion and cloth.
C5yMaTc.jpg

o9pcmxW.jpg
 
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If anyone wants to see how bad tables can be setup to play, visit Jillians in Worcester, MA. There are tables there that if you play at a 4-5 rail speed, the cueball will hop off one rail, hop off the second rail and by the 3rd rail it can hop off the table.

Every pocket was cut in random angles, some have divots, some have curves, some have the corners cut sidways, all rails play long so kicking and banking is random.

Worst part is that the managers and owners paid someone to fix them, the same group that set them up badly in the first place, they supposedly replaced the rails, but by how they play, I don't think they did anything.

Good installer is a must.
 
iusedtoberich said:
BTW, I saw brand new blue label Diamonds do the exact thing your table was at the Southern Classic last year 2012. I was there in person. The balls hopped off the first and even second rail, just like your video. Several of the pro's were complaining about it. The airconditioning was on very cold, but the air felt very wet.
Click to expand...

Large commercial central AC units are probably the worst thing for controlling humidity. They have plenty of power to drop the temp of the air, but they don't cycle very often, so they don't remove much water from the air. I had central air in one house and the humidity got so bad everything in the basement got covered with green mold and had to be tossed out.

When you lower the temperature of a volume of air without removing the water vapor, the relative humidity skyrockets. This happens most summer nights as the air cools down to the dew point and water actually condenses from the air onto the grass and such. Same percentage of water in that air as there was in the daytime, but air at colder temps can't hold as much water, so it condenses out.

Best bet at home is to use low BTU window-mounted ACs which cycle frequently (and drip excess water to the outside), and then supplement with a stand alone dehumidifier.
 
Dopc said:
***Disclaimer: I am not a table mechanic, just a hobbyist and what follows is my opinions only.***

The subrail is the angled portion of the wood the rubber cushion is installed (glued/adhered) on to. If in fact the subrail design (angle degree, elevation/height and/or thickness) are incorrect, this is where your issues originate.

There can be a variety/many of incorrect subrail/cushion degree of angle, elevation/height and subrail thickness that could all have the correct nose height. The nose height is only one portion of the formula for good rebound characteristics.

In your picture "looking down the rail", imagine that nose hight stays exactly the same, but the rubber cushion is twisted clockwise or counterclockwise, this is where the ball rebound characteristics will change with improper subrail design or possibly incorrect rail installation.

The rubber cushions could have possibly been installed upside down as well from the factory, doubtful but is in the realm of possibility. Almost all of these mentioned issues are out of the consumers reach to correct themselves unless you have experience working on pool tables and the necessary carpentry tooling to do so. This is why people are guiding you to seek help from first the seller, and if not resolvable from them go to the manufacturer of the table for a warranty claim & repair. Sadly at this point you are at the mercy of one of these groups of people to get your table corrected.

If in the end, you get stuck with a table that plays such as yours without any help or correction from the seller or manufacturer. You could try to shim the rails up by sandwiching some hard flat material between the rail and table slate. Using a material the thickness you wish to elevate the rails. This will help reduce/stop the ball bouncing, but if the cushions are not in the correct angle to start with, you may have additional undesirable rebound characteristics going this route. This is not a correct fix to the issue, just one that will help reduce the ball hopping, and as mentioned introduce possibly even far worse rebound issues. Such as short/long bank angles, balls pinching (balls wedging between the cushion and slate) upon rail impact and killing rebound speed & additional cloth wear on the slate creating a channel along the rails.

I imagine the frustration and disappointment you must feel is high, I feel your pain. Call the seller and start there, be nice, but be firm and let them know how disappointed you are and that you will not stop until the issues are resolved, or you would like a replacement or a refund if not correctable (good luck). It's a shame you have to deal with this, buying a new table should not be like this and is a dream smasher.

Dopc.

EDIT:
Below is a couple pictures of the subrail without the rubber cushion so you have a better understanding of what the subrail looks like under the cushion and cloth.
C5yMaTc.jpg

o9pcmxW.jpg
Click to expand...


Thank you very much !

And I also want to thank everyone else, who wrote under this thread ;) You guys, you helped me alot to understand my problem.

I contacted with the seller and he promised me to come and take the rail to manufacture for checking. I don't know how long it is going to take, but hey ho rather prefer to have the table to play as it should :)

I will keep you updated as soon as I will have any respond or either information which I will get from them.

Thank you One More Time !

God Bless.
 
Hustlin-Felice said:
Thank you very much !

And I also want to thank everyone else, who wrote under this thread ;) You guys, you helped me alot to understand my problem.

I contacted with the seller and he promised me to come and take the rail to manufacture for checking. I don't know how long it is going to take, but hey ho rather prefer to have the table to play as it should :)

I will keep you updated as soon as I will have any respond or either information which I will get from them.

Thank you One More Time !

God Bless.
Click to expand...
Good luck with that, I don't believe they know what the problem is in manufacturing their rails, if they did...there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place. If all else fails, and you're still not happy with how the table plays, the box up the rails and pocket castings and send them to Mark Gregory to fix them right...which might be what you end up doing in the end anyway.

Glen
 
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