Help? Restoring a 1904-09 Brunswick Wellington

B

BigJake

Registered
I bought this old table off a couple that needed to clear it out of their garage for space to park their car. It has some damage, but it's a beautiful table and I love it.

The issues I've found since moving it, that I could really advice on are:

1. The slate at two corner pockets had been broken near the very edge, and now make what was a round edge for the ball to drop over, a 45 degree line that connects the two edges of slate. (Will add pictures soon.)
My game plan as of now is to pay a wood worker to try and mimic the other corners the best he can and fill in the gap?

2. And this is the biggy. Two places for the rail bolts, where they bolt into the slate, will not give purchase to the bolts. Either something is jammed or broken off deep inside, or the threading is completely stripped out. I'm considering using a long narrow dril bit to break it up? But I'm timid about that undertaking.

3. The yahoo before me, used 3 inch wood screws to hold the rail on. (Just screwed through the exterior of the rail and into the wood right below the slate ) wondering if I should patch the holes... Or maybe take it to a professional of some kind?

4. The leather pockets are original. Along with their brackets. So very old, and have broken in a few places... Would it hurt the value more to get replica pockets? Is there some way to fix them? The gold trim around the pockets (little braided fabrics hanging off) are still there on 4 pockets. Missing on two. Again should I use replica parts for them or just take them off?

5. should I try and remove the glue that held on the old felt? I'm having a professional come refelt it next Friday. Want to make sure it's ready for him.

Just cleaned it, base looks beautiful. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks for your time reading!
 
I'm trying to get some pictures up so y'all can see what I'm trying to describe.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    89.5 KB · Views: 851
That's what the corner is supposed to look like.(below)
Above is one of the two damaged corners.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    92.8 KB · Views: 862
It's worth mentioning, the table has it's original rails, which are made for snooker (the rounding into the pockets)

Any input on whether putting American pool bumpers on would impact the value of the table badly?

I bought the table to play on, but I don't want to compromise the tables integrity over rounding near the pockets.
 
I wouldn't expect to be playing on this in the next week or two assuming your mechanic knows what he's doing.

The rail bolts are an issue that will take time and TLC to repair. If I understand correctly you have bolts that won't go in no matter what. The nut is leaded in place. Thats where you either see a cement type product or actually see the lead. This has to come out and the nut thread chased or replaced. Problem here is the thread pitch is not standard. Your table was built before there was standard pitches (or near that time) and Brunswick apparently wanted parts business at the time. It's like 3/8"- 10 or somewhere there abouts.

Again the corners need a skilled table mechanic that is also a skilled woodworker.

Personally I wouldn't worry about cutting the pockets for pool. This was, and is done. I guess you have to answer some questions. Do I want a pool table? Do I want a Snooker table? Do I want friends over to play or not. Snooker may be a hard sell. I know, my table has no pockets. Do I want to sell this table?
Good luck and take your time. If you do you'll have a wonderful table to play on.
 
Well, not expecting to play on it this week, but I have a wood worker coming to fit the pockets Tuesday and a felt/leveling/wax guy coming Friday... I'm hoping the latter guy has some ideas on fixing the bolt seating over time, or knows someone that can. But With 90% of the rail bolts working I don't see why It couldn't be played on after it's felted...

Does that sound crazy? I don't know I'm new to antiques and pool table ownership. Haha
 
Sorry I didn't get back. The rail bolt repair cannot be fixed after the cloth is put on. Unless you don't mind a hole under the rail.
 
Many years ago I purchased a 1906 Brunswick Southern. I ran into some of the same problems you have. All of the wood corners were still on mine but after I got the table covered I hated the way it played. The edges of the pockets are rounded and you can make a ball from anywhere. I also had a rail bolt that I repaired. That can be done by drilling out the hole and installing a nutsert that uses a modern thread. Be very careful you don't crack the slate though. My slate was cracked at the above mentioned bolt hole. I had to epoxy it. Those pocket irons and new pockets are available at several places. The best place though is Classic Billiards. His name is Ken Hash. He not only has all the parts you might need but he also builds modern slate for the old tables. You ship your rails to him and he matches them to new slates without the wood corners. Then the table plays like a modern one. Have fun, I finally bought a new table. LOL Don
 
And if you need to I think I saw that Muellers builds new rails for the old tables.
 
BigJake said:
Well, not expecting to play on it this week, but I have a wood worker coming to fit the pockets Tuesday and a felt/leveling/wax guy coming Friday... I'm hoping the latter guy has some ideas on fixing the bolt seating over time, or knows someone that can. But With 90% of the rail bolts working I don't see why It couldn't be played on after it's felted...

Does that sound crazy? I don't know I'm new to antiques and pool table ownership. Haha
Click to expand...

It is possible the lead bent over the entry to the retained nut.. The thread for that table is going to be a 3/8-14 or a 3/8"-16. Both are standard threads in the thread data books. However the 14 pitch is an extra course and is not readily available. If you measure one of the functioning bolts you should either have 1 thread for each 1/16 line or slightly less. Check all hardware, not uncommon to have 2 off size that will "force fit" and eventually break the retained nut out of the top of the slate. I have yet to see (I work on a shit ton of antiques) a bolt break before the slate cracks in that type of design. A 6" long 3/8"16pitch tap is available for about $45, but the 14 pitch one is like $150+... I just made one. Good perc of being a machinist as well I guess. I wouldn't worry about new slate, you'll never see the money out of it. As far as replacing the pocket liner wood, just have it replaced... let your mechanic size it. You will greatly change the way the table plays if this is done incorrectly. Make sure your guy is a player and understands shelf on a pocket drop.... As far as remaking rails, there are not any cheap options. Biggest thing with just changing cushions is that you must not let whomever do it use a table saw with the rail upside down... These rails are not square/flat/consistent on top in relation to how they mount on the slate. There are several guys who have tooling that will cut the subrail angle while rail is bolted to slate, then there is me who has a machine fixture just for it. We just saw a butcher job from some knuckleheads in central PA who did the former, the rails looked like they were smiling at you. A good 1/4" deviation from center of rail nose height to pockets. I never got to talk to customer about it, but found out he had them take it back the next day.. and that was a fully "restored" table! Hope you can use some of the info.. Good luck!
 
Sorry but 3/8-14 is not a standard. Anything can be made & purchased but that's why the tap is expensive They only make a few per year.

I'm not that familiar with the history of Brunswick hardware so 3/8-16 I suppose its possible there was a change for these bolts, but man would that be confusing not to mention destructive!
 
3kushn said:
Sorry but 3/8-14 is not a standard. Anything can be made & purchased but that's why the tap is expensive They only make a few per year.

I'm not that familiar with the history of Brunswick hardware so 3/8-16 I suppose its possible there was a change for these bolts, but man would that be confusing not to mention destructive!
Click to expand...

3/8-14 is a standard thread, it's thread pitch data is commonly available in many forms. Standard thread is a thread pitch associated with a diameter; They typically come in Extra course, course, fine and extra fine.. Standard course and occasionally fine are available commonly. Just like the standard thread pitch on 5/16" pocket bolts are 18 pitch for course and 16 pitch for extra course, or the frame 1/2" hardware which is 11 or 12 pitch extra course or 13 pitch course...slipping my mind which at moment. The extra course threads haven't been commonly used in 80 years+

If it is that big of a deal, get some others to go in and I will personally make all the uncommon standard pitch taps and dies you want! Quantity = discount.
 
TableTek said:
The extra course threads haven't been commonly used in 80 years+
If it is that big of a deal, get some others to go in and I will personally make all the uncommon standard pitch taps and dies you want! Quantity = discount.
Click to expand...


Really not worth arguing about, but. What you said.

Been in the business for decades. Like I also said, anything can be made. Also many things have been used, and are used, that are not standard and tools can be had to accommodate. That doesn't make it a standard. In the billiard business there's all kinds of thread forms and pitches with the tooling that goes with it, but again they're not standard. My cue has a pin that's 1/2"-10-1/2. That pitch is only standard to later model Dieckman cues. Rather than tapes and dies he would single point the thread.

SAE Standards were started around 1910 and mostly finalized during WWll. Extra Couse pitches were not part of the program mainly to maximize compatibility issues. Fine pitch threads are used primarily where higher clamp loads are required for a given size. Course pitches are for all the rest which is most. No need for extra course. You might say that these slate bolts need even less clamp load so the extra course is more suitable, I agree, but these bolts are never proofed anyway. I've heard numbers like 10 or 12 ft/lbs torque for these. Not even close to being proofed.

I won't go on. Its really not worth it for either of us.

Just a friendly conversation from a torque nerd.
 
3kushn said:
[/B]

You might say that these slate bolts need even less clamp load so the extra course is more suitable, I agree, but these bolts are never proofed anyway. I've heard numbers like 10 or 12 ft/lbs torque for these. Not even close to being proofed.

I won't go on. Its really not worth it for either of us.

Just a friendly conversation from a torque nerd.
Click to expand...

What does proofed mean?
 
TableTek said:
3/8-14 is a standard thread, it's thread pitch data is commonly available in many forms. Standard thread is a thread pitch associated with a diameter; They typically come in Extra course, course, fine and extra fine.. Standard course and occasionally fine are available commonly. Just like the standard thread pitch on 5/16" pocket bolts are 18 pitch for course and 16 pitch for extra course, or the frame 1/2" hardware which is 11 or 12 pitch extra course or 13 pitch course...slipping my mind which at moment. The extra course threads haven't been commonly used in 80 years+

If it is that big of a deal, get some others to go in and I will personally make all the uncommon standard pitch taps and dies you want! Quantity = discount.
Click to expand...

Can you make taps and dies suitable for use on steel? I have had several occasions where I needed an 11/16 x 16, or 11/16 fine thread tap and/or die and could not find them anywhere.
 
fastone371 said:
What does proofed mean?
Click to expand...

This will be the short answer. When you tighten a bolt it will actually stretch. If you tighten it too much it goes beyond its elastic state and enters into a "plastic state" (Yield). In the plastic state the fastener cannot rebound to its original length after loosening. That bolt is ruined.

The idea is to stay well below the plastic state where the bolt can still act like a rubber band, always trying to relax to its original state/length. This is typically somewhere between 85-95% of yield load. Bolts should be torqued to approx. 75% of yield. At this point most consider the fastener to be proofed. There's a lot of confusion with all these terms. Some consider proofed to be in the 85-90% range but this figure puts the bolt in an unstable condition. Or at least close to that state. Too close.

A generic torque spec for a 3/8-16 Grade 2 bolt is approx. 20ft/lbs which will give you a clamp load of approx. 3,200 psi of clamp force. A 3/8" bolt will yield at approx. 57,000psi

fastenal_tensile_stress-strain.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top